Ask the Coach: Co-Parenting After Separation

Tiffany: Their kids will be fine.

They will be just fine. So again, I wanna come back to the science, 'cause science is our friend and the data tells us that things go, they go off the rails for parenting for about two years after separation. Of course it does. It's a big change. And after that, parents find their rhythm and children, so long as parents shield their kids from conflict, that is the big killer.

Nothing else. Nothing else matters as much as shielding the kids from conflict. So long as the parents are just working at keeping adult problems at the adult level and not not sharing those with the kids, then the kids are gonna be just fine.

James: Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, everyone you are listening to. Don't Be Afraid To Talk Podcast with James. If you are listening for the first time, you are welcome. Talking and listening is key for growth, and I hope our stories will bring us together and we can draw inspiration from each other.

Conversation will include topics such as mental and physical health, trauma and its effect, suicidal thoughts, recovery and wellbeing. We'll continue to raise awareness and offer a different perspective, a mindset or an idea that would inspire you to take charge of your wellbeing and to grow as a human being.

Thank you for joining us for another episode of Ask the Coach Today. I'm joined by Tiffany and Tiffany's joining us from Willetton, Western Australia. And today we're gonna be discussing all things relating to co-parenting. If you're listening today, have an open mind and we hope you can learn something from today's episode.

Tiffany, how are you?

Tiffany: I'm well, James. I'm really, really, uh, delighted to be here. I've been looking forward to this conversation.

James: I'm more calm now. The staff part gave to me, I dunno why, but, um, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself please?

Tiffany: Uh, yes. So I'm a clinical psychologist and co-parenting coach.

Uh, I have been working in this space for, uh, uh, quite a few years, uh, more than two decades. And every time that I say that, I feel really quite old. Um, I prefer to say that I feel really quite wise. Um, I have always worked with families that are going through tricky and difficult times. And, um, around the midway point in my career, a large number of the families that I was working with were families going through separation and stuck in the family court system.

And what I saw was people going through all kinds of hell and paying all kinds of money to try and get outta that hell and not finding solutions that worked. And it was a space that I saw really needed to change for those parents and for the children that they wanted to raise. So, um. So I built my, my practice and my business around that to help parents who need to, um, you know, need to separate for their own health and wellbeing to raise children in healthy to home families.

James: Mm mm You don't just help parents, you also do webinars and stuff. You teachers well, don't you?

Tiffany: I do, yes. Because I dream big James. And I know from the conversation that you and I previously had that, that you are the same. Um, I dream about huge paradigm shifts in this space and to do that, I don't want to just serve the families.

I want to also build a network of professionals that support and resource them. So, um, I do a lot of training in the, uh, mental health professional space on using our therapeutic tools to, uh, better support families, both parents and the children, and. And part of my, uh, there, there are kind of two things that drive in that space.

One is knowing that, uh, parents in conflict is one of the key drivers of burnout for mental health professionals. And the other side of that is, is that mental health professionals who aren't trained in the dynamics of two home families don't know necessarily how some of the things that they're suggesting in, you know, with good intentions and, and with good skills in all other areas might actually not serve that family well.

So I, I love to spend that time training mental health professionals in how to sustainably and very effectively help to home families. And then I also like to spend a lot of time with family lawyers, um, law, uh, so, so law is necessary and family lawyers play a really vital role in, um, serving and supporting families.

And yet the traditional adversarial model. Is damaging and harmful in the wrong solution. And so what I see in so many family lawyers is desperately wanting to know more effective ways to serve families. And in the field of contextual behavioural science, my home ground, we have a whole heap of knowledge that can help them out.

Um, and the lawyers I spend time with, they are the loveliest people. Uh, they're as committed and passionate as I'm about serving people as they go through their tricky transitions.

James: Mm mm Sounds busy. Sounds amazing. I'm busy. Yeah.

Tiffany: It's both busy and amazing. Yes. Mm-hmm.

James: Definitely. Yeah, definitely. Okay.

Before we get onto our topic today, which is co-parenting, we're gonna play a quick game called One for One. I'll give you a word and you say the first word that comes to your mind.

Tiffany: Oh, good heavens.

James: You, you're already overthinking it. You don't have to think. Just whatever comes to your mind for us. Okay, so Fabrics,

Tiffany: soft 

James: Kitchen,

Tiffany: chocolate

James: Dogs.

Tiffany: Oh, cuddles,

James: Shamrock

Tiffany: Island, Ireland.

James: And last one, karaoke.

Tiffany: My favorite.

James: I saw you, you posted a video of you singing a karaoke, so I was like, I have to ask about that.

Tiffany: Yes. So I think somewhere in the multiverse, I am on Broadway, somewhere in the multiverse. I am hosting a karaoke lounge, and somewhere in the multiverse I am probably just reading a really good book somewhere very quiet and warm.

James: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's a whole new topic, more for us, but I love it. Yeah. I, I believe in it. It's happening. It's up there somewhere.

Tiffany: We can, we can, um, dive into that in our next episode.

James: Yeah. Yeah. I just love that mindset thinking. So, okay, let's get going on co-parenting today. And my first question is, how can parents prioritize, prioritize the child's emotional being while navigating separation?

Tiffany: Yeah. So I love the way that you've dived in with a really big, hearty question. Um,

James: I, I think that's where a lot of stuff happens

Tiffany: is, is the right question to be asking.

Like, like nobody goes into a relationship and creates a child, raise a child into this world with the idea that they're then going to separate and figure out how many nights the child can stay at one home and, and then how many nights the child can stay at the other. That's, that's, that's not on people's vision board.

That's not where they're putting energy out into the world to create. And so when that happens. For a start. We've often got, you know, that, that lovely song, you know, we've already gone to the karaoke space, um, when a heartbreaker don't break even. So we've often got, um, an, an two people in an unequal stage of grief because, um, of the way that the relationship ended sometimes with a long history of, uh, of trauma or of tension, of, um, of needs not being met.

And then they're going into this terrifying chapter where no matter which way you cut it, their finances are going to suffer and their experience and parenting is going to change beyond anything that they possibly, ever, ever wanted for themselves in their relationship with their kids. And in that space.

In that space, we ask them to be child focused and to look after the needs of the child and to be able to look after their health and wellbeing. Look, I'm gonna try and not swear. I'm a bit of a bit sweary normally James, but, um, it's okay. Well, I I'll say it's a shit fuck storm, right? Like, I mean, it's just, it's awful.

It's a horror show. It's a horror show. Mm-hmm. Um, and so then that question becomes really important because it is often top of mind for parents that is what they're thinking. And sometimes that's what's delayed them leaving in the first place is because nobody wants to traumatize and hurt their children.

James: Mm-hmm.

Tiffany: So, I think my first answer, now that I've given you a whole heap of backstory

James: mm-hmm.

Tiffany: I think, I think my first answer is first of all, be so kind to yourself. Like, give yourself so much grace for all of the feelings that you're feeling for how hard and complicated it's, the second thing is, if you know that your relationship does not have a hope of recovery, if that moment has passed, the season is done.

And feel safe in the science. And there's a ton of it. It shows us really, really clearly that children do far better off being raised in a two home family where they're not exposed to conflict than being in a family that is trying to stay together, but exposing them to toxic ideas about what romance and love and family looks like.

So take a load off if you can, take the pressure off yourself to, you know, I, I can't, I can't give parents a magic that they don't have grief, they don't have a trail, they don't have anger. But if we can take off the layer of being, um, of judging themselves, of being hard on themselves for having those healthy human emotions, that's gonna reduce their own burden right there so that they can actually see their kids, their kids will be fine.

They will be just fine. So again, I wanna come back to the science, 'cause science is our friend and the data tells us that things go, they go off the rails for parenting for about two years after separation. Of course it does. It's a big change. And after that, parents find their rhythm and children, so long as parents shield their kids from conflict, that is the big killer.

Nothing else. Nothing else matters much as shielding the kids from conflict. So long as the parents are just working at keeping adult problems at the adult level and not not sharing those with the kids, then the kids are gonna be just fine. You would not know that they were growing up in two home family any more than you would know whether they had been breastfed or bottle fed, or whether they had gone to daycare or been homeschooled.

They'll be indistinguishable from the rest of the population in terms of their outcomes on social, emotional, academic wellbeing. If you just shielded from conflict is the one thing that they just need to keep their eye on. 

James: Mm. Now I can pick up so many from what you talked about there.

Tiffany: Sorry, I do tend to get on a bit of a soapbox.

James: question and a question. Okay. So I'll start with this part. So you mentioned about taking it easy on yourself. Yeah, that's, that's quite difficult in a sense that when you're in that stage, often PE parents will think that you are causing them the problem. So it's hard to take easy on yourself. 'cause at that stage you're already.

You are almost there, two people fighting and you're fighting for, often they're fighting for, I dunno, power maybe. I dunno. So it's very difficult to be at the stage where like you want to calm down because you're constantly thinking, this person's doing this to me. They're doing this on purpose, they're doing it on purpose, they're doing this on person, and then the child is just in the middle of that already in a conflict.

Tiffany: And, and in my work in this space, so often what I see is, is parents are deeply focused on wanting to do what is best for the children, but not agreeing with each other on what that is. Um, and. In that space. You're right. Like it's, it's messy, hard space. It's really hard to tease apart what do I want for me compared to,

James: yeah,

Tiffany: what is right for this little person. Like, it, it, it is hard. And you, those, those thoughts that, that constant rumination and worry and panic. The thing a, a again, in terms of taking the load, of taking the pressure off, is to acknowledge this is really, really, really hard.

So for goodness sake, don't do it on your own. I think it's one of the things that I, I hear from parents from time to time is this thing of, um, we, we shouldn't have to have somebody help us with this. And I'm like, where the heck did you get that idea? Like, who made that up? We're top of the food chain, right?

And like, you know, I, I'm looking at you James, and I'm looking at me. And, um, if, uh, well, I don't know. We, we don't know each other terribly well. I don't wanna make assumptions about you, but if you dump me in the middle of a forest somewhere and ask me to survive on my own, to forest my own food, to deal with predators that find my way, I'm not gonna survive very long.

We're top of the food chain because we figured out how to work together, support each other, to resource each other. The whole idea that takes a village to, um, raise a child, right? It, it takes a village to raise a family, to support and help and nurture each other. Nurture each. So, so, yes, it is really, really hard what we're looking at doing when, when people are, um, going through these dark days of the early stages of separation.

So it becomes really essential. To reach out for help, to reach out for some support to say, I don't know what to do with all these thoughts inside my head, but holy goodness me, I would really love for that to be lighter. I'd like to know what to do in my heart, feels like it's gonna explode out of my body.

Like, um, and, and, and what we see over and over again is over early intervention, as always is the answer, right? That they're getting some help. Then before things, before things get the chance to get even, um, you know, a thousand times worse. It's only a tiny bit of time, tiny bit of, uh, money, a tiny bit of energy to get in some really good essential, you know, mental first aid. Emotional first aid in that stage.

James: Yeah. No, when you say, sorry, I dunno why raw questions down when I'm just picking 'em up from what you say. When you say help, I'm guessing you're saying professional help rather than. Because if, for example, if I'm separating from someone and I'm turning to my family, they're gonna support me because they're just looking at, oh, this person caused you this pain.

There's no really clear thinking. So are you talking about like a professional help from an outsider rather than because your family just be like, Nope, they're the bad person.

Tiffany: Yes. Although, since you raised that, like I, I do wanna talk about family just for a moment because I, I'm sure of all the people who listen to your podcast, some of them might be in the very situation we're talking about, but a whole heap of them will know somebody, you know, they, they will be the family, the mom, the dad, the brother, the sister, um, or the best friend.

Um, and so, so the where to go. I'll come back to just a moment. 'cause obviously it's something I've got a strong opinion about. You can see I've got strong opinions about everything. Um, in terms of friends and family, uh, yes, you're right. We wanna protect our own. Um, my, my eldest is, um, is dating, uh, in his first serious relationship and Top Points, like his partner is fantastic.

I couldn't have chosen a better one, but I, but I, I'll I'll say it to him. You know, if they, if they break your heart or break their face now, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, um, because I, I, I don't value violence as a solution for a problem. Um, but the sentiment holds in terms of this is, this is my boy, it's my baby boy.

If any, if anyone hurts his heart, I wanna hurt them back. And yet that doesn't serve anybody at all. Because if their relationship is unhealthy, I want them, I want them to, um, break apart. I want 'em to find the right people for them. As a family, our job is. To wrap around them with love and help them see the bigger picture of who they need to be in that moment for themselves and for their children.

And if there are children in that relationship, then the co-parenting relationship is there till death apart. And so looking at how do, how do you have the healthiest relationship you can with this person who is the, um, other parent of this child becomes really critical. So for family, friends to understand that they need to listen to you more than they speak.

They need to, uh, provide a safe space for you to fall more than they need you to solve their problems.

James: And

Tiffany: that, that, that is, that that is enough. And we know that's enough when we provide a context of safety, when, when it is the place, and this is why dogs make me think of cuddles, James, is when is that where we can sit and know that we are safe and we are loved?

Then all of our, all of our, um, prefrontal cortex can come online and we can solve our own problems really, really well. Um, so that's the friends of family part in terms of the early help. Yes, definitely. Seeing a professional and the professional that you see really makes the difference. And I, I think, you know, the, the traditional call goes out to, you know, you, you separated, go call a lawyer.

Yeah.

James: Um,

Tiffany: and, and there there is usefulness. There is usefulness, again, some legal advice, um, early on, and I would say, uh, the, the lawyer that you go and see matters, uh, I would definitely say look for somebody who is collaboratively trained. It's a non adversarial approach to helping families through separation.

It's where, um, the best part of lawyering comes out. Where they, they are part of a team that wrap around a family with care and nurture is very different from the, the mediation, um, and courtroom scenario that, that people are most familiar with. So, a little bit of legal advice from a collaborative lawyer is, is great, just understand what your legal position is.

James: Mm-hmm.

Tiffany: But the most important advice you need, uh, or the most important space you need to bounce your ideas with even more than you need. The advice is with somebody who is a specialist in child development and human behaviour. In the context of separation and raising kids across two homes that, that's not a lawyer.

Lawyers are great at lawyering.

James: Yeah. Is,

Tiffany: um, you know, psychologists, social workers, counselors, coaches that are good at communication issues and child development. And so that means then, as I said, you've often got two parents who both want what's in the best interest of their children. They just dunno what that is.

A child development specialist who works in the space of two home families knows what it is. We can solve that problem so quickly.

James: Yeah.

Tiffany: By telling people what to do by, by just helping know what developmentally children at that age and stage usually need.

James: What's happening. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Okay. My next question is, why do parents feel the need?

Oh, we touched on this, but what do parents feel the need to do it alone? This is. This is that, where is that coming from? Is that a society or the shame that like, or your relationship didn't work as so now you're on your own or?

Tiffany: I think there are so many reasons. So many. So yeah, we do live in this individualistic culture.

Um, certainly in Australia we do. And I imagine Ireland's not, not too different from that. Yeah. Um, and so I think there is that part of like, you know, we, we, we do things on our own. We don't share so much. Like we used to a, a huge idea of I don't wanna be a burden on other people, which, um, you know, I, anyway, we could, I could speak a lot about that, but, but that, that idea comes up and Yeah, you're absolutely right.

That sense of, that sense of shame, um, you know, that sense of failure. We, we weren't supposed to do this. And, um. And whilst I can't remove people's shame and I can't remove that sense of failure, I can tell them it doesn't belong with them. That, that, um, evolving out of an unhealthy relationship into something that is healthy for you and your children is, is not failure.

It's a courageous act of love. And yeah, so I, I really do wanna red redefine the narrative, but nonetheless, it, it sits there for people, but then the systems around them don't make it easy either. We have, I've mentioned about the risk of burnout for mental health professionals, uh, working in the two home family space.

And the solution a lot of mental health professionals have chosen is to just not take on separated families. And so also afraid of families are not created equal. There's probably, um, you know, three to 10%, there's, there'll be three to 10% rods say you need really, really specialist training if you're gonna work with those gnarly ones.

You know, they're, they, that they exist, they're really difficult. We have extremes that in any population, but that means like 90 to 97% of the separating population, um, are completely fine for, um, for everyday clinicians to, to serve and support and resource. So if any of them are listening, please don't close your doors to these vulnerable families.

You really can do it. And if you need some help with that, contact me. I'll help you out. Um, and yeah, and I think there is this kind of, this prevailing idea of, well, you made the mess yourself, so clean it up yourself. Um, yeah, as if. As if people don't bring a learning history when they go into a relationship, as if there's not a person that I was before that led me to go into a relationship that ended in a space where we weren't able to stay together.

Like, like the reasons that a relationship ends is incredibly, incredibly complex and layered and may track back many generations. It is not about just person A and person B not able to get along.

James: Hmm. Yeah. When we get into shame, that's a whole new topic. But yeah. I'll go onto my next question. Uh, now I've seen this.

Do you think some parents would use the child to get their way?

Tiffany: Yes. But it's a nuanced yes.

Um. So I would say that we may get some of that, you know, that, you know, three to 10% gnarly end who Mm. Do that with deliberate intention.

James: Yeah.

Tiffany: More often. More often I think we see an entanglement that we've already talked about between the, the child, uh, what, what's best for the child and what's best for me or what, what, what I want or what I think I need.

Um, and so often we see those things being confused together. Um,

James: yeah, definitely.

Tiffany: And, and yes, so we do, we do see children get used in the middle of the space. Um, and sometimes they use the shields as well when parents. The parents can't communicate with each other and they start communicating through the children.

Oh, yeah. Which is terrible.Which is for anyone to that like, just don't do that. It's a, it's a, it's a terrible, terrible, uh, thing for kids. It, it definitely puts them in that at risk bucket, you know, the, the, the, the, the not going to be okay bucket that we don't wanna see our children in. Um, and that would probably be more common.

And sometimes, and I hate it when this happens, but sometimes we'll hear it come up in the, in the financial versus parenting, the, the, you know, how, how much time do I have this child and how much money is going out? I hear that. Um, sometimes, and the more often actually when I think about it, the more often thing that I hear is parents thinking that that's what the other calculation the other parent is making.

And the other parent is not thinking about the money. They are thinking about the child and just how much their heart is hurting to not be able to have their child, um, with them. Um. That was a long and convoluted answer. I'm not sure that all of that was intelligible James. Um, but if it wasn't offshore, you can edit it out.

James: No, do do you think, I guess like when you talk about finance, do you think some people start but some people focus on that more rather than what the child needs? Because I ideally, like the child would still want what, and the base study know what's happening. They'll still want to spend more time, well same amount of time, but he often gets drawn into like,” oh, I'm paying this so you spend more time with him 'cause I'm paying you that”

Tiffany: look it certainly, the conversation can, cannot often get caught in that loop.

And people, money does, money does horrible things to people. I don't think that's new information to, to anybody. We can see money bring out the worst in people. And so stepping through the financial. Aspects of the separation is stressful and hard. Uh, e every, everybody is, everybody is losing their financial status in a separation.

So that space is murky and, and awful and yuck, um, and unenviable and inevitable like that is that that is part of what is gonna happen.

James: Mm-hmm.

Tiffany: So, again, falling back to the data, what I want all of the parents who are stepping through that to know is that again, when we are looking at what is important for the children and making sure the children are okay, the data tells us that it's got nothing to do with the financial standing of the family, not to do with the financial standing of either parent.

It's got jack all to do with wealth and. If any parent is not sure about that, if they're, you know, concerned about the other parent being the Disney parent and all the other things that get thrown around, then what I would invite anyone who has that idea as they're listening to us, um, is to reflect on, in fact, I'll ask you, can I, can I put you on the spot, James?

James: Yeah,

Tiffany: yeah, yeah. I'll ask you a question. I, I I say, can I, we on the spot and then I don't tell what I'm gonna do. So I, I'll I'll ask you the question, but of course, this is a consent process, right? You can choose to not answer. So what I want you to do is I just want you to just kind of cast your back, your memory back over when you were small, um, maybe ideally when you were, you know, it depends when your memory starts, but somewhere under 10 and the, the earlier the better.

And if you can find a moment with any adult, it can be a parent, aunt, uncle, teacher. I don't care who, any adult, a moment when you were with them and you were just like. Yeah, I felt really loved. Like I knew then, I knew then that I was loved by that person. Is there a moment that you can find?

James: I don't have that moment.

Tiffany: Uhhuh. I get that answer sometimes. Yeah, and

James: I, that feeling just doesn't, it's not there.

Tiffany: All right. I'm gonna ask you another question. Is that okay? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Alright. If you could choose, like, if, if you could choose, if you could create that, if it, if you looked back and that moment was there, what would you be doing in that moment with that adult?

If somebody had been able to create that space where Little James felt wholly loved, what would've been happening in that moment?

James: Uh, probably just hanging out, hanging out, playing simple things.

Tiffany: Yeah. Yeah.

James: Just spending time with a person.

Tiffany: See how quickly that was there so quickly. And I've never heard somebody say, well, it, it would've been that we went to Disneyland, Paris. Um, you know, like it's,

James: yeah,

Tiffany: right. It's, it's grandma bakingbiscuits. It's, um, you know, a parent reading a bedtime story. It's, um, you know, the, the aunt who, um, who, who just would always pick up the phone. And we do often. We do often find those moments, you know, have those experiences with people where it's a, I don't know, I've gone looking for the memory and that's not there.

Now. Two things, two things happen, James. One is, is that you wake up at 3:00 AM and go, oh my gosh, there's that moment because they've got all those neuro pathways firing, right? Um, so sometimes that will happen and that's delicious and lovely. And sometimes, sometimes it's not. Sometimes they just weren't there.

And then that's where for those parents looking at that question of, of what would you choose to be there is so important, because within all of us is that wisdom to know the answer, right? It was there straight away. I just wanted someone to hang out with me. Like, how easy is that?

James: Yeah. And it's nothing to, it's nothing to do with finance, but we, we tend to, nothing to do with finance.

We tend to think more and more and more, but. It's not really what the child wants, think, want

Tiffany: the child does, does not want money. No, but they want you, right? They want that time.Yeah. They want that presence. They want that connection. And we don't need any money to do that.

James: Yeah. Yeah. Super. Oh, worry of time already. We're gonna skip some of this. Um, sorry. Okay. No, no, that's fine because I keep asking you a question on top of a question. So this one I want to touch on. Um, let's talk about the part where the child starts to blame the parent for the divorce separation. This is where like, it's, I dunno, it's, “it's your fault” dialect, for example, or “it's your fault. Mum does this,” you know?

Mm-hmm.

And well, obviously they don't understand what really happened at the top, but to them it's like, “Your behaviour took this person away from me,” or “what you didn't do take, took this person away from me. So it's your fault that I'm like this.”

Tiffany: Right. It's it sure. It it comes up and Yeah. It tugs at every heart string they've got. Right. Um, mm-hmm. And as most people in the fight flight, often the assumption is made that that's come from the other parent.

Sometimes it has. And if it has, yeah. Um, the other parent is, is you know, pretty much just drawing their own relationship with their child. Um, children do not like to, to hear parents speak ill of each other, but sometimes it's not, it's, it's not coming from the other parent. We, we've got children growing up in the world trying to make sense of what's happening, trying to understand, as you said, what what's going on.

Uh, when we're anxious, we seek to control and we seek to have information. So they're trying to, trying to figure it out. Usually trying to solve it so we can, you know, have the parent trap issue where parents actually get back together. But we also, the narratives our children grow up on. Other than, um, uh, Spellbound, which was an excellent Netflix movie that came out last year, I highly, highly, highly recommend beautiful, um, beautiful representation for two home families there.

But outside of that, the narratives that we have in our movies, in our children's TV shows, um, you know, if we look at our superhero archetypes, their, their stories of goodies and baddies, heroes and villains, right and wrong, good and evil, black and white, it's very binary. We have, um, the predominant narrative, um, of separated families is a yeah, estrangement, like complete estrangement.

Mm. That's what surrounds these children. And so then they're looking at their parents and they're left with this. So who is, who is the villain? Who's the bad like. We, we have to put blame somewhere. If there's blame, maybe we can fix it. And then, and then I know whether to choose a side. Um, so helping children understand that they don't have to choose a side, um, is, is, you know mm-hmm.

Support for them. It goes back to that conversation we had about the broader family and friends, or, you know, earlier on in our conversation, the job of a parent, if a child is blaming, is to remember that what the child is actually doing is saying, “this really sucks and I'm hurting and I'm scared and I'm upset.”

And as a parent, you don't need to defend, you don't need to explain it's adult stuff. And even if you, even if you think you fully understand how come your relationship came apart, I promise you, you don't. For all the reasons we already talked about, all the, all the parts that go into influencing the person that we are here now, it's very multilayered.

It's certainly beyond any adult to fully understand with there, there is no absolute truth of, of, you know, how come this didn't work out? Um, so it's, it's, it's beyond, it's beyond the capacity of the child and it's not necessary or helpful for the child. The child just needs a parent to go, “oh, I guess you need to be angry at me right now. And if you wanna blame me, that's okay. Let me have it. Just tell me how it's for you and I'm gonna be the one who's big enough, strong enough, wise enough, kind enough.” And those aren't Tiff words that come straight out of Circle of Security. That space for you Right. Container, yeah. To be here.

James: Yeah. It's just, it's the hurts they feel and they don't know how to verbalise it. So, and you, you're looking for the, the bad person. Now this is the basis that this is how they feel. And it's not another parent saying, “It’s your Dad's fault. To your mom's fault.” That happens as well. But that's a whole Yeah,

Tiffany: it sure does. It sure does. Yes. That, uh, it's never helpful.

James: No, no, it's not. But for them, just verbal, like saying those words, is this coming from a place of hurt? And they're just confused the way they're trying to make sense of it so they can in some way fix it, but. It's not really for them to fix it, just Yeah. It's more for you to let them have it.

Tiffany: Yeah. Because I can see how hurt you're, yeah. If they come out with anything particularly bizarre, like, I don't know, um, “you go and spend all the money on things 'cause you don't prioritize me” or I don't know the other things that children say, um, we can point them back to their own experience.

So we can say, “do you know what? Track your data of me, like if you look at how I am with you and how I am in relationship with you, does, does that, does that story hold up? Is that what you see me doing with my money? Because if that's what you see me doing with my money that I, I dunno, prioritise buying, um, I mean Australia, so prioritising Tim Tams, um, over, um, you know, looking after you, like if I'm actually doing that, if when you look at my behaviour, that's what you see me doing, I, I actually do want you to let me know because that's, that's not how I wanna be a parent to you.”

Yeah. But also “if that, if that doesn't line up, if you look at my behaviour and my behaviour with you and you go, actually, that doesn't line up well then, then we know that your mind has just presented a message to you because it's trying to solve a problem that you can't solve. It want, it wants to know answers that, um, there for things that there are no answers to. It just really sucks for you right now. Mm. While you get used to us being a two home family.”

James: Yeah. Yeah. Great. Great. Um, looking at my other important one here to pick on, um, so I'm gonna ask for advice. What advice, um, would you give parents that separating at the moment and entering the stage of co-parenting stage?

Yeah. It's a stage. Yeah.

Tiffany: Uh, so my advice would definitely be don't do it alone. That's just stupid. Don't do it alone. Get help early.

And if you're trying to figure out what to do with the kids, find a behaviour specialist who works with two home families, and then you have a neutral person who has nothing to win by taking sides, who can just bounce with you, who can be that space to bounce where your kids are at, what they're doing, what they're interested in, what ages and stages they're at, and help you figure out what it is they actually need in those moments.

And then the last thing I'll say is look into collaborative practice to help you step through. We know that, um, uh, I don't know what the stats are for Ireland, but um, in Australia, 65% of, um, of, uh, parenting arrangements, financial arrangements are organized around the kitchen table. Um, which sounds fantastic except the data all also shows us stats.

Only 20% of people believe that they have a fair agreement that they feel good about. Okay. But when we look at the stats for people coming outta a collaborative separation, so that's when you, again, you've got your, your lawyers, um, your collaborative coach, so that's someone like me. The, um, behaviour and child development expert in the room, uh, financial neutral.

The multidisciplinary team wrapped around the family. Um, then the, uh, satisfaction outcomes from that range, from 75% all the way up to a hundred percent that people feel that they're heard, respected, and have an agreement that they don't need to worry about whether or not the other person's gonna follow because they both feel values aligned.

They both feel it's the right thing for their family. It's the most, it's the most beautiful thing. It's the most beautiful way to get through your darkest days. So, um. Collaborative practice. Collaborative practice. Collaborative practice. That would be it, James.

James: Yeah. Yeah. And that comes after, after you calming down in a sense that you're no longer blaming each other. 'cause I think it's hard to get to that stage where you, when you're stuck and blame and you're stuck in finger pointing, you are wrong. I'm right. And all this stuff is coming up. So I have to sit down and just

Tiffany: look. You're absolutely right.

I had a, an interesting conversation with someone just the other day and they said, TIFF, look, I don't think collaboration is for us. I don't think that we can do it. And they gave me several examples of, of things that their co-parent had done, um, in the past two days. And that was the evidence that collaboration wouldn't work.

And my reflection back to this parentis we haven't done anything yet. Like we, we haven't started yet. Um, so. So nothing could have changed yet because we haven't done anything. But if you're going to judge whether a process is going to succeed or fail based on not having started the process, you're possibly looking at the wrong information.

However, in a collaborative process, part of the job of the team, and particularly the job of the coach, is to look at the both parents and go, what do these people need? What's gonna resource them? What will help them deal with those feelings of blame? What will help them deal with those feelings of guilt and anger?

What do they need before we get them in the room together so that they're going to be able self passage, say passage through to the other side?

James: Mm, yeah. Yeah, definitely. Um, my other questions for you is what some mistakes core parents are making.

Tiffany: Besides try to go it alone.

James: Yeah. That, that's a big one. And do it all alone and blame the other one.

Tiffany: Yes. So the, the other big mistake, so what I would say is, um, parents are usually right about the problem and wrong about the solution. And, uh, what, what I see so often is that they, they see the behaviour that's happening, that's coming out of the, the hands, feet and mouth of their child or the hands, feet and mouth of their, their ex.

They see that behaviour and then they form an analysis of that behaviour. You know, this person is doing this because they want to manipulate me. They're doing it because they hate me. They, they're doing it because of this. And then they shape all of their behaviours around that analysis being correct.

James: Yes.

Tiffany: And when you're in that huge context of pain and grief and sadness, like your analysis, probably not correct. And even if your analysis is correct, even if you are right, that they're trying to manipulate you and make your life hell, if you behave to in response to them as though that is true, it's not gonna bring out, like, I, I'm not gonna have beautiful behaviours if that's what I believe to be true about somebody.

Um, so, um, in terms of mistakes, it's making the wrong assumptions about what is driving the behaviour of the other person. We had a, a beautiful moment inside our, um, parenting community the other week where we had one parent who was, um, un unpacking with me one of the issues that they were dealing with, with, with their ex.

And one of the other parents piped up and said, oh my gosh, like, oh my gosh, I've just realized that this person. That the behaviours that are coming out of their body are the behaviours that I'm experiencing from my co-parent. But I've just realized I'm entirely wrong about how I've been interpreting them, because now I can see that actually what's driving the behaviours isn't, um, in this case, it, it isn't about hatred or manipulation, it's just fear.

This parent is scared. And so this other parent with this new insight say, oh, my co-parent isn't trying to be awful to me, they're scared. I need to let them know. They don't need to be scared of me. Like, what a different amount of behaviour that's gonna bring out there. Right? So if it's, if the problem I have to solve, it's not you were manipulating me, but you were scared of me.

James: Yeah.

It's shifting that mindset because like you said there, it's like I'm having an argument. Where my assumption about what you're doing instead of looking at what you're doing. So what you're doing is creating an assumption and I'm picking on that and say, you are doing this because of this, rather than actually having a conversation.

Tiffany: Yeah. So often, so often. Um, I, you know, I, I think often, um, Netflix would be very boring if everybody could just communicate properly. Like that is the, the crux of every plot is for communication. Um, and I think the other thing that, and particularly moments, I like that, that between that parent over there and this parent over here, um, in that conversation is why it is so, in my opinion, well, not my opinion, it's what our data shows us.

Incredibly powerful to bring parents together to, to, to work on these skill sets and toolkits together because there we've got that beautiful. Example of we created a safe context for parents to show up and say, this is hard. And when parent A shows up and says, this is what I'm struggling with and I feel safe enough to talk to you about it, parent B who's witnessing the conversation feels safe enough to go, oh, I've got pennies dropping all over the place.

I can put things together differently from how I could before and I can solve my own freaking problems. Thank you very much. Like I'm beautiful, beautiful to watch.

James: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's, now it sounds easy when we're talking about it 'cause we're talking about it from a secure place, but in, in that heat of those moments, uh, 'cause you see like these things go, can go on for like months and years.

Tiffany: They can, they can. And, and I think that's where that early intervention piece becomes really important. And it's where that community becomes important. So everything that that we do inside our business, that co-parenting companion is around building communities of values aligned co-parents who are committed to bringing their best selves to their darkest days, because we do better when we do it together.

And so, um, if there's, you know, if, if we can regularly get access to somewhere that is safe for us to be, then it's much easier to bring our best selves out to the days that are hard and the times that are really, really tricky.

James: Yeah. Yeah. That's great. And one last thing I want to touch on is boundaries.

And because it's very important to create, important to create, yeah. To create healthy boundaries. When you're dealing with someone that's one person's stuck on a power dynamic.

Tiffany: Yeah, it's, it's really, um, essential and pretty much, uh, we're, I, I, um, do free discovery calls with anyone who's looking at, at working with us.

And, um, and that's because I think if you're gonna trust someone potentially with your time and your money, you, you have the right to know if they're gonna be the right person for you. And the conversation that, that pretty much I have with every parent is them talking about, um, their boundaries being transgressed or not knowing what boundaries they have the right to hold or, or if they have the right to hold the boundary, not knowing how to hold the boundary, um, and or disagreeing about what the boundary.

And, and the boundaries in a co-parenting relationship are different from the boundaries in a romantic relationship. So the boundaries over, um, what happens when somebody is dating somebody new? Do I, do I have to know them? Do I have to tell them and do I, do I get a chance to say whether or not they can introduce them to the children or all of those types of boundaries, um, which are, uh, can be, can be fraught, but, but also just the very simple boundaries about how often do I have to check my phone for messages?

Um, how soon, like how quickly do I need to reply to an email? How much detail do I have to give? Um. I, I, if I, if I, I may have a, a quick plugin, just delete it out if it's not appropriate, James. Um, but it, it's such a foundational starting point for setting things up for success. Um, we have on our website, our, our six steps for co-parenting success.

And it is a free course. It takes about 15 minutes to do. Every strategy in it is free to implement, and it is all simple solutions to get boundaries in place. Even if your co-parent doesn't wanna follow them, they're all, they're all ones that you have full control over and your co-parent can't shift on your behalf.

Um, so for easy ways to get started, uh, I highly, highly recommend that. Um, yeah.

James: Mm. Yeah, because yeah, it's difficult 'cause when you spend so much years with someone and then all of a sudden you start setting boundaries, you still have that feeling of, I shouldn't have to go by this because. 'cause we had a relationship, so it's almost like you can't put a word in front of me.

Tiffany: Yeah, yeah. Mm. And yet, and, and, and yet probably boundaries was part of an issue for a lot of people in their relationship not being sustainable for them. That, that a healthy, romantic relationship that needs boundaries too. Um, and I don't, I, I think when I look at, um, when I look at how the, the narrative on, um, on enthusiastic consent has changed from, you know, when I was a teenager to when my, my boys are teenagers now, and I think, my gosh, they know so much more about what healthy boundaries look like than what, certainly, than what I was ever taught at that age.

So I, I think the future looks good. For healthy relationships, um, out of this up and coming generation. I, I think perhaps that's where the messy generation in the middle, um, yeah,

James: yeah. The next generation seems to be doing better at than, I don't even know what a stuff it was. I didn't even know what boundaries was until the last couple of years.

I'm like, what?

Tiffany: Yeah.

James: What's that?

Tiffany: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I have a right to say no to that, right? Yeah. Or, you know, I get to, I get to decide what's good for me, not just because you want something from me, like novel concepts.

James: Yeah.

Tiffany: Shouldn't be novel. Novel concepts. Yeah.

James: Super. And sorry, just one last thing. I heard you mention that in relation to so separated parents and one partner started dating.

So how does that, because I know some people might be like. Oh, we have to wait X amount of months. You can't just bring another person into a relationship.

Yeah. But some couples would just be like, how does that, like, I don't think, I don't think that's healthy.

Tiffany: yes. Certainly something that we get asked about a lot.

So, uh, a new stable relationship can be the most stabilizing, um, influence on a two home family. And it can also destabilize something that has been amicable and healthy. It's, it's a powerhouse of change either way. Um, potentially. Um, so my advice to anybody who is dating, um, after separation is really leaning into the work of reflecting on.

What went wrong in your past relationship? Um, and, and do the deep dive into how did I contribute to that? How did I participate in that? Mm-hmm. Whether it's about was my radar off for choosing the person who was right for me, the person to bring out the best stuff in me, or, um, you know, did I need some communication skills that I could have contributed?

Like, like do that learning. It's, it's a wonderful learning opportunity that the universe has given you. So lean into it. Um, the second thing then would be, it is really hard for children if they have. A parade of partners, um, brought into their lives. So mm-hmm. You really wanna make sure the relationship has some decent legs in it.

Like, like before you Yeah. Introduce them to the kids you really wanna know. Yeah. Like, this is, this is the person I can see being around for quite a few years. Like, so, so take that time, date them deliciously slowly, like, um, slowly, you know, really enjoy the time you don't have the kids with you to be like teenagers again.

Enjoy it because one, once you know they're, they're meeting the kids and everything. It's that, that little magic window is gone. So take it slowly. It's beautiful. It's lovely. It's a great gift for you and your new partner. And then when it, when it is at a point where you think like, yeah, that it, it, it, it is time, it's time for us to move our lives together more.

It's time for the kids to know who this person is and be able to share in this joy, respect your co-parent enough to tell them first. Let them know. Don't introduce them to the kids without your co-parent knowing. And the main reason for that, even though I say do it outta respect for your co-parent, is like, do it for your freaking kids and do it for yourself in your new relationship.

Tiffany: Because you don't know what emotional reaction your co-parent is going to have.

James: Yeah.

Tiffany: And whatever reaction that is, unless it's absolute freaking joy, you don't want them having that reaction in front of your children when your children go home and say, I just met the new partner. Hmm. So when we tell them first, when we give them heads up, and it doesn't mean you can, you, you don't, you don't get their, in terms of boundaries, you don't get the right to say, well no, you can't introduce 'em to the kids.

I don't like that. I don't agree. Like, like if they've done you the courtesy, you, your job is to say, wow, thank you for that. Thank you for doing me the courtesy. Really appreciate you giving me the heads up. Um, and then the next thing and. And I really highly recommend this so much is have the new partner and the co-parent catch up either over Zoom or for a coffee date without, with, without the ex, um, to just meet each other.

Because if you are, if your co-parent once fell in love with you, they've got pretty good taste in people, which means you're probably gonna like the new person, or if you'd met them under circumstances that were different from this, you might've been friends. Mm-hmm. It's worth knowing who they are and letting them meet you so that neither of you are dealing with the stories that other people are telling you about each other.

You get to see each other face to face, human to human. And when I've seen that done. The majority of the time, it sets it up for a much more successful transition for everybody and stepparents, oh my gosh. Bringing in a healthy stepparent relationship. There is no limit to the number of people who can love a child.

They can be the greatest asset in the system. We just need to set it up for success from the start.

James: Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Don't be dropping it to the kids way too soon and not telling the other person, they're just creating conflict that no one wants. That's right. It's like, oh, your child, my child.

Like your child coming home and telling you, oh, dad is with someone. Oh, mom's with someone, and you didn't even know like that. You mentioned the emotional reaction. It's gonna come out.

Tiffany: Right. It often, it often, even when they think that they've, they've moved on or they've, you know, they've done their processing, it, it hits hard on that grief button.

James: Mm-hmm.

Tiffany: It can, it be, it does

James: It does on, and it can turn into you doing things behind my back if no. Yes. You didn't do anything wrong, but in it was the way you did.

Tiffany: That's right. That's, you've been deceptive. Why wouldn't you tell me what Yeah, yeah. So, mm, yeah, it's just not worth going down that pathway.

Um, and people, people will avoid it. They'll avoid telling, um, their co-parent because they, uh, avoid difficult conversations and Mm. So often we avoid difficult conversations. We just create bigger problems for ourselves further on down the track. So do yourself a favor, you know, um, push your feet to the ground, lift your pelvic floor, have the difficult conversation, and save yourself a world of pain further on down the track.

James: Yeah. Super. Thank you very much.

Tiffany: Thank you very much my so lovely chat with you, James.

James: Thank you. My last question, which is not related to parenting. Um, what do you do for fun? When you're not a karaoke show,

Tiffany: it's karaoke for sure. Absolutely. My, my great love, my great addiction, um, is my selfcare zone. It is the way to celebrate the end of a great week. It's the way to work out the trauma of a hard week. Karaoke is the answer for those case. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

James: And do you have a sewing machine as well?

Like, do you make clothes?

Tiffany: Yes, I do. Yeah. I, I make more, more costumes than clothes. Um, quilting costumes, crafting costume. Yeah. I, uh, you know, for book week and, um, Halloween and, um, I love sewing. I am not good at it, and I absolutely love it. And the best thing that I ever heard for sewing was I went to a, a craft workshop.

I was learning something about que and the person who was running the workshop said homemade things should look homemade. And that, so that's what your bad was. Liberating thing. All my homemade things look homemade. Yeah. They gave

James: you the permission to be like, right. That's homemade live.

Tiffany: That's exactly right. I love it. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. Day at my machine, music blaring, singing along, sewing under the machine. Absolutely. My happy place. Yeah.

James: Super. You have an online group as well, do you for, for parents?

Tiffany: Yes, we do. Yeah, so we, um, four times a year we run our, um, co-parenting intensive reset, which is, um, uh, our group program.

So there's some online modules, loads of videos of me. They probably dream of me. They see so much of me. And then, um, five, uh, group coaching calls where they get to hang out with all those really cool people we've already talked about. And, um, for people to step into our community if they get to the end of that five weeks and they would still like some nurture and support that we have some options for them to stay with us for as long as they like, um, and to leave us when they're ready.

Um, and yeah. Yeah, it's. I, I mean, I just wanna tear up. When I think about the parents in our community, they're, they're the most beautiful, beautiful humans. It's a, it's a treasured space. I love those coaching calls and the time with them. They're the most incredible human beings.