Building Collaborative Co-Parenting Relationships

Whitney: [00:00:00] Are you in that messy in between space? Marriage not quite happily ever after, but divorce feels like jumping off a cliff? You're not alone. I'm Whitney and I was you five years ago. Let's untangle the emotional knots of am I happy or am I just used to it? Is this enough? And if not, then what do I want?

Let's figure out if your relationship needs a spark or a goodbye. We'll talk divorce without losing your mind, co parenting like a boss, even dating, awkward first encounters and all. Because life's too short for I don't know.

Do you ever struggle with your co parenting relationship? Or do you wonder how do people do it? This has to be one of the things I'm asked about most. How do I do it? What's it like? And to be honest, the smoother my co parenting relationship is going for that moment, day, week, the smoother my life seems to flow in general.

It's not easy, but extremely [00:01:00] important. Today's guest, Tiffany Rochester, is here to share with us her wisdom as a clinical psychologist and co parenting coach dedicated to bringing ease and simplicity to co parents. She draws from a wealth of experience spanning over two decades. Tiffany combines her expertise in child development, the science of human behavior, and the power of compassion to offer swift relief and open new opportunities for separated parents.

Tiffany offers a lightness and a humor to a conversation that can definitely be challenging. I hope you enjoy Tiffany Rochester. Welcome Tiffany Rochester to should I stay or should I go? Thank you so much for being here today and for your time. Thank you, Whitney. I'm really, really excited to be here.

Yeah, me too. As soon as we connected, you know, I was just like, wow, we are so aligned. So this is going to be really exciting. Can you just tell our listeners, Briefly, who you are and why you do what you do.

Tiffany Rochester: For sure. So I am a co [00:02:00] parenting coach. I trained originally as a clinical psychologist, and I have always worked with families that are going through difficult transitions or having really complex times.

And around 10 years ago, I moved into working within the separated parent space. And the particular part of that space I was working with was families is. who had been stuck in conflict for a really long time, who found their way into the awful world of family court land and were entrenched in conflict.

And I was really struck by the amount of overwhelm for these families, how much pain they'd been going through. for so long and how poor a job the family court does by nature of the way that it works for actually doing anything to resource families to be able to co parent well and move on from a difficult history.

And it was really clear that more support was needed at the early stages, early intervention, early support, early resourcing, and not inside a [00:03:00] courtroom, not inside the world of adversarial legal process. But rather in a safe coaching space to support parents in how to separate really, really well.

Relationships end for such good reasons. So there should be healthy supportive pathways out to transition to a new and far brighter chapter.

Whitney: Yeah, that's a really beautiful way of explaining it and something, you know, my ex husband and I were lucky enough to kind of fall into the hands of a essentially like a mediator and child psychologist that works.

In this space, Melbourne based because it is, we use the lawyers to help us just kind of do the financial side of the divorce. But then we were like, okay, you know, we've never separated before. We don't know what to do. And even just to help us like ask the right questions. And like, you're kind of saying, you know, plan for this phase of our life.

As we would plan for anything else and getting that support to say, these are the questions you ask. This is what you need to think about and guide us through that and be like kind of a [00:04:00] third party that can mediate essentially those tricky conversations. Can you talk a little bit more about how you help families at that stage?

Tiffany Rochester: Yeah, absolutely. And I think the example that you gave there about. Planning for separation the same way you would plan for your marriage, I think is such good guidance because so often what I hear from people who are in those early stages is we shouldn't have to, we should be able to do this by ourselves.

We shouldn't need external help. And I think, my gosh, you're asking far too much of yourselves. This is

Whitney: right. It's your hardest days. It's so tricky. And even it is, it's a relationship breaking down. So it's like that's emotional in itself. And then it's kind of like, Well, what about the kids? Someone help us at least look at this from just a more neutral or removed place to just break this down.

Tiffany Rochester: You're exactly right. In that space of, how do I be a really good parent for something that is so tricky for my kids at the time when something so hard is happening for me? Huge, huge task. And the other [00:05:00] thing that you said that I just think is so important for people to remember is for most people, they've only done this once, this one time.

And so sitting with somebody who is not in that same emotional space and somebody who does have some expertise in child development and in Conflict resolution and communication skills and to guide that process makes so much sense. And I don't see it so much to mediate those conversations, but more to facilitate them.

And I think the difference for those who are listening is that in a mediation, it's the idea is, you know, I will let you speak and then I'll stop you. And then I'll let you speak and I'll stop you. But in a facilitation, sometimes there's The barriers to moving forward in a healthy way is that there are some really difficult conversations that the two parents haven't been able to have about how is it that the relationship has ended or what do they value about each other's parenting.

There's often such a history of hurt. So to be able to facilitate those really transformative healing conversations makes it so much easier for both parents to do exactly what they want to do, which is to [00:06:00] parent the kids really well and separate healthily.

Whitney: Oh, it's just so beautiful. You know, it gives me chills a little bit because it is that's it.

Like you still want to be a good parent and you still want to be there for your kids. And, you know, at least in my experience, it's like you can have those conversations that facilitate you still seeing the good that's there. And it's like, wait, you are still a great parent. And, you know, you're still a great dad.

And we still want. To do a B and C together and in this ways and the reality is we still have to figure out a way to parent together. It's not like, oh, we're divorced now. I never have to see you together. It's like, I still have to see you a lot. You're still very important to my life and to my kids life.

So facilitating. Yeah, like a sense of positivity in a sense of still, I guess, joint decision making in a way, because yeah. That ability is, still needs to be there, you know?

Tiffany Rochester: It does. And as you would know, the boundaries in a co parenting relationship are very different from when you are in a romantic relationship with someone.

And I don't think it's fair to expect that you can automatically intuit what that's supposed to be. [00:07:00] And so, yes, knowing when do you give guidance? When do you give feedback? When do you give input? How do you do it? All of those things are nuanced and tricky. And, and with people who are hurting, there's so much That of course, you're going to step on each other's toes while you learn what the new dance moves are.

That's entirely human, entirely normal. So then to be able to go to a dance class for a little bit to learn what those new steps are, it's just really healthy. It's really sensible.

Whitney: It's so true. And I can really relate to that. It's like, as you say, you're moving from a romantic relationship to not a romantic relationship and even just.

In those ways that you kind of offload on a partner or I don't know, our partners sometimes cop the worst of us and it's like, Oh, yikes, like, I can't do that anymore. You know, like, say we're at a sporting event with the kids or whatever, and something's frustrating me about what he's doing. It's like, I don't get to kind of do that anymore.

I'm like, Oh, hey, can you just, you know, Go do that for me or whatever. It's like, we now almost have to be overly polite and kind and considerate to each other. Yeah. In a totally new way beyond what we were doing in a romantic relationship. [00:08:00] It's like, yeah, those boundaries totally shift. And I guess become almost more.

It's like the boundaries are stricter in a coparent relationship. It's felt like that for me, I guess, but it's been a real learning of times. We've overstepped. We've messed up. We said the wrong thing. Yeah. Yeah. It's complicated.

Tiffany Rochester: Yeah. It requires a lot of grace, doesn't it? To be able to move past this.

That was just oops. We didn't know. And I wonder the way that I think about it, Whitney, and I'm really curious to see how this lands for you is that when they are your partner, then you care about how they are across all of their life. You know, do they have relationships with their colleagues? Are they keeping in touch with their parents?

Are they growing as a whole wonderful person? But when you're communicating with them as your co-parent The only thing you're looking at is how do I get the best out of this person so that every interaction that I have with them is pleasant for me and pleasant for my kids. It's a different frame. It doesn't actually matter what is happening in the rest of their life.

So long as the parts that you connect with them are healthy.

Whitney: Yeah, exactly. And it's like, and you still like kind of, you will [00:09:00] of course want the best for them because the better they are and the happier they are, the better it is for your kids and things like that. And so it's like, I've often felt, for example, like.

I wouldn't want to leave my ex partner high and dry with something if he's having a stressful time at work or has an important meeting and it's technically still his time with the kids. It's like, well, I want to step in and support you because that's going to be a better experience for my kids. And I guess it's like that reminder that's making it about him or what he's doing or not doing.

And like, the only people that impacts is the kids and they're the ones that we really want. The best outcomes for, and I don't know, I find it can be easy just to make it like that resentment get in the way of like, it's your turn. It's my turn. That kind of misses the whole point in a way.

Tiffany Rochester: I think you're speaking something which is so challenging to particularly in those early years is about when am I being a facilitative collaborative co parent and stepping in and helping out this person who I really respect they're in a bind.

And when do I feel that my boundaries are being transgressed? And [00:10:00] I'm having to pick up the pieces. And when is it time to step in? And when it's the time to say, no, I'm not able to do that.

Whitney: Yes. I sometimes step in when I shouldn't need to. I think out of a place of guilt, if I'm real, and feeling bad and worrying about my kids.

And it's so hard and it's something I'm really working on of like, yeah, as you say, supporting when it's appropriate, but also knowing that it's okay to not always jump in. I have work commitments and social commitments and everything that is also I'm allowed to have. Ugh, it's just hard.

Tiffany Rochester: And I think the key word you used a few sentences ago was you talked about if resentment builds, and I think that's often such a healthy guide.

So for, I know for so many parents, they feel that if my co parent isn't able to have the kids in that time, I would like to be able to step in because they're my children and I already don't have them as much as I would like anymore. I'd love to have them. Um, and so the guidance I often give is that you can always ask, you can always ask the other parent to step in on your [00:11:00] time.

We just need to be respectful. That person may have made other commitments. And if I think about you in that space, Whitney, as you said, you might have work commitments, friendship commitments, and you might be actively, if you're like many parents, prioritizing the time when you don't have the children to get more of those things done.

So you can be more available when they're with you and you are entitled to do that. And you can't necessarily drop all of that. Okay. And you don't want to leave your kids high and dry. And so then often that conversation becomes more like a, well, well, how are we going to solve this as a team? Because I am not able to step in.

I can't actually drop my commitments. So where else can we draw from within our system? Are there friends either on their side or your side? Are there other extended family? How else do we resource this?

Whitney: That's a really good way of thinking about it. I've never thought of that of like, okay, I could still support by Assisting in like finding a solution, you know, it's like, okay, we're still in the same team to find a solution for this problem, but it doesn't mean I have to be the one necessary to do it.

And it is, it's like, especially when your kids are young, like when I'm with [00:12:00] my kids, I can't leave them to go for a run or go to the supermarket or do those things. And so it's like, I need to make sure that I'm kind of refilling my tank. Appropriately, when I've got time on my own and because I was finding I was trying to do everything and then it was like impacting them the times when I did have them because I didn't really give myself any space to recharge again, probably just out of guilt and feeling like I'm not doing enough and all those things that rule my life.

But yeah, and then it's like a slippery slope. So It's hard.

Tiffany Rochester: Yeah, it is. And as we talk through each part of it, right, that we keep coming back, that this is hard. And if it's hard and we don't support and resource parents when it's hard in the early stages, it's so unfair to expect that somehow it's magically going to get easier.

And yet I understand. And I want to check in with you. Things have gotten easier for you and your co parent.

Whitney: And I think that's a great question. And it's like, great to remember is that Like it gets easier. And I guess I think, you know, I'd love to take this [00:13:00] conversation right back to, you know, the beginning of like, how do you tell the kids in the beginning?

And what can it feel like in the beginning? Because It didn't start like this, that's for sure. You know, we're like three years in and it's still tricky and really tough moments. We are getting better. But yeah, it's just amazing and it's all good all the time. We work really hard at it, but we've had a lot of missteps and a lot of really, really tough moments, lucky to have support through that, but it's not like flick a switch and then, oh, easy.

Yeah. Like you say, we're going to go from Mary to realizing marriage, breaking down to just nailing this co parent thing.

Tiffany Rochester: I think I've seen it happen in one time in the 10 years that I've been working in this space. I've seen it happen once.

Whitney: Yeah. And I guess a lot of it is just a commitment to wanting to try and wanting.

to eventually make it work doesn't mean that it's going to get it right all the time. Anyway, take us back to like, okay, for someone listening that they've just separated, it's feeling overwhelming. Their emotions are running high. And how do you tell the kids?

Tiffany Rochester: Yes. So I'll take it back a little step [00:14:00] earlier.

You've just separated. I would say that you're about to separate. because that would be the time you'd want to tell the kids. And it does happen the other way around sometimes. I think you're asking a harder task of yourselves to start separating. So what I would say to parents, and I would come back to our conversation right at the start around not being in the law space and not being the family court space, there is a very important role and you touched on one of them for lawyers to play.

And in the first stages of preparing to separate, it can be incredibly useful for both people to see a collaboratively trained lawyer, somebody who is focused on supporting people to move into a two home family cohesively, because there can be important legal implications about what happens as you separate across the two homes.

And that is best gained with a half hour with a lawyer, a really good spend of your time. So to get some clarity there. Often it can be useful to also meet with a collaboratively trained financial neutral, an accountant or a financial advisor who can [00:15:00] give you some guidance on how do you do the finances just for that first part because that's so scary.

Particularly right now we're in this cost of living crisis to look to move two homes.

Whitney: Yeah, suddenly the same pie has to support two homes and it's like, wait, how is this supposed to work?

Tiffany Rochester: Yes. And so that in and so stressful. So, so hard. And then with those two pieces, it makes it far easier. When the two parents are then looking at what is it that we want to tell the children because now they can have a sense of, are we going to try nesting?

And if we're going to try nesting, how long are we going to try that for? Is somebody going to move out? And if so, who's going to move out? Where are they going to move out? And what is the first, just the first few weeks of shared care going to look like? So as soon as those pieces are in place, then the parents are ready to tell the kids.

Whitney: So once they have kind of a little bit of a plan.

Tiffany Rochester: A little bit of a plan, yes, because the children will likely ask questions. You don't need to have all the [00:16:00] answers yet. It's completely fine to not have the five year plan or the ten year plan mapped out, but they will want to know. So I, that point, my recommendation is that the, Parents tell the kids together and that they have got a short bullet point script that they know in advance that they're going to stick to.

And that it doesn't need to be a massive conversation. And I would encourage parents to not set it up to be a massive conversation. It is big news. It doesn't mean it has to be a big conversation.

Whitney: Yeah. And kids aren't necessarily just going to fire back questions or know what to say or say anything back

Tiffany Rochester: necessarily, do you find?

Exactly right. And it can vary from child to child and their ages as well, of course. So I generally say plan for a weekend when it is at least an hour after a meal, at least an hour before the next meal, so they are well fed, but they've got time to be ready to eat again. On a weekend where they don't have a lot of other commitments on, so that they can have all of their [00:17:00] emotions and that they can have access to both parents whilst they have whatever emotional reaction they're going to have.

And then the only things that kids need to know is our romantic relationship has finished now. And we know that we can be better parents to you if we parent separately from two homes. And we know that this is probably not what you were dreaming about. We are here to support you, whatever is happening for you as you make sense of this.

And we're committed to the way that we will parent you together. We love you. And the fact that we were going to parent you. together through the rest of your childhood is set in stone. That's what we're committed to. And I would say that's like a five minute conversation, right? And at that point, if the kids ask questions, what I say is answer any questions they ask.

But if they don't ask, just let them go and let them process, check in with them a bit later on.

Whitney: Yeah, I know it can be funny because it's like, you know, well, my kids were young, like three and five. And it's like, they didn't have a lot of questions. And it's like, uncomfortable as a grown up where you would have so many [00:18:00] emotions and questions and theirs weren't necessarily.

right there on the surface. And at that age, a lot of it was just kind of practical logistical stuff of like, okay, wait, so like, how are we going to get to school? And once you can sort of be like, they understand now how life is going to work, they're kind of like, okay, yeah, it was funny.

Tiffany Rochester: Yes. And I think certainly from the age of four up, uh, four to preteen, I think it's often like the Goldilocks zone for separations because they are old enough developmentally to often be able to move into a really.

Good and stable shared care arrangement that works for the needs of that family. And it hasn't yet got to the point where their teens who have very strong opinions about whether or not they want to be moving between two homes and what that's going to look like.

Whitney: Yeah, definitely. So then you've told the kids.

And yeah, what does that kind of like holding space look like? Do you ever say to like, ask questions or check in or just let it be? What do you think?

Tiffany Rochester: There is [00:19:00] so much that relies on how well you know your children. And I think this is where the, you know, using a coach is so helpful for knowing. What to ask and what to look for and what to watch out for.

But the answers for what is best for your kids, that's always going to come from the parents. And so if you've got a child who normally expresses themselves and talks about things when they're upset, then if they're still doing that, they're probably fine. If you have a kid who you know, tends to hold things to themselves and not express things, you might want to keep an eye on and ask them gently, but not too often.

Don't make assumptions about how they're going because they might be doing really well and to track for changes in terms of. If they are more moody than usual, if they are withdrawing to their room more than usual, if they, anything that is different from what you know of your child when they are happy and well, that would be a good time to check in.

And also to make sure that the key adults in their lives outside of the two of you, so school teachers, loved aunts and uncles, or adult family friends, that [00:20:00] they know the news more Um, And if you're, if you're interested in that. I think that's a great question. And I think it's a great challenge. Um, so I, I just want to say that we are, we are an adult and we are not going to be the news and they don't have to be the secret keeper of the news.

I just go and get that support.

Whitney: Yeah. When we told our kids, it was a similar thing where we said, you know, we are. Still one family. It's now just best for us to live in two homes. And, you know, mom and dad's love has changed for each other. But like for you, our love will never change and those sorts of things.

And I do think like we've kind of kept that sort of narrative still going of like, we are still one family, but we just live in two homes. And I think That they really feel that. And I guess I just want to hear your thoughts on that. It's like, that's something that I'm really passionate about. This idea that like divorce happens and it's challenging, but it doesn't have to be like, this is broken or your family's broken or something's wrong.

And it's like, you know, my kids have like lots of extended family. They, I think, feel part of [00:21:00] something that is very much whole and complete. So I just wanted to hear what you're seeing and thinking about those sorts of concepts.

Tiffany Rochester: Yes, I feel that so strongly and I really look forward to when we catch up a conversation and we say remember when that wasn't the dominant narrative and now it is, how everybody talks about two home families.

A colleague of mine was sharing with me last week that she and her co parent have both repartnered and over time, similar to what you've shared, Winnie, that it didn't start off easy. They've worked hard for what they've got, but now the children refer to them to all the. people as they're adults and there's more people that love them and celebrate them and help them grow up.

I think that idea that you can still very much for the sake of your children, you can be a healthy family across two homes is a beautiful image to work towards. I think it's completely available and I love watching it happen. I would say to again, to give. yourselves in those early years, the grace and space that, that you might not be able to jump to straight going, Oh my gosh, we're amazing across two homes, [00:22:00] but to go, that is our goal.

That's what we're aiming to get towards.

Whitney: Yeah. And I think that's it. It's like, just, and this is like my own journey and something I work on so much is like, we can still want that, but it doesn't mean like, it feels like that in every moment and every interaction. It's like, yes. And kind of, it's like, yes, this is our vision and there are tricky moments.

And there are times when the kids say to us. I don't want to live in two homes. Why do we have to do this? And those conversations, sometimes, you know, as a parent, you're just like, Oh God, I've done this. I've ruined their lives. But, but then it is interesting. Sometimes I think when you inquire further, it's not necessarily for the reasons that I think, but I think that's also a bit of age and stage.

You know, mine say a lot of things. Yeah. Like, Oh, well, I just don't like having my stuff Not where I want it to be, or I think they miss the other parents, which is hard. It's helped as they've gotten older and they're now able to call and text on their iPad. So they have more immediate, like, access, I think does help.

[00:23:00] But I don't know if you've seen anything or heard parents talk about what the kids struggle with and how to just support kids. It's a huge question. But. in general.

Tiffany Rochester: Yeah. You said something so important, which was that when the kids say this, you ask more questions. And then you find out that the story that you had about what they were asking is different.

And I think, my goodness me, what a gift to your children that you would do that because so often across them, no matter what we're doing, when we're parenting, our fear narrative that we are stuffing it up is so loud. We can avoid asking those questions because what if they confirm

Whitney: What if they said I've ruined their life through this divorce?

Tiffany Rochester: Right, and that is, you know, and you've mentioned in this conversation that, you know, the guilt that comes up and there is so much of that present often because people generally don't have children planning to then separate. That's not on people's vision board. That's not what they're trying to manifest.

And then what I think is so important to remember in that is that actually. To make the conscious decision to leave an unhealthy [00:24:00] relationship, and I would assume that in most cases, people have done what they can to try and transform that, to try and make it healthy. People don't leave relationships easily.

That is not possible, either because life has thrown grenades at the two of you that you just weren't equipped to handle, or whether it is that one is working on it and the other, for whatever reason, isn't. If it's at the point, Where it needs to end. That's an incredibly courageous and loving decision to make for each other and for the children.

And your children are entitled to have those feelings of, I wish that we didn't live across in two homes. Like I wish mom and dad could be here or mom and mom and dad and dad. I wish that this was our life, but you live with the reality that if you had stayed together, it wouldn't be beautiful. It wasn't healthy, they would have been exposed to ongoing conflict or tension, or at the very least, not seeing what a healthy romantic attachment looks like.

And to be modeling to your children, to stay in a relationship that doesn't serve your needs, that ain't [00:25:00] cool. That's not good.

Whitney: Yeah, that's not what I want to teach my kids at all. And that it's like, you know, relationships. It doesn't mean something was, like, there was nothing wrong with my ex husband and mine's relationship at a point.

He was the person I was meant to be with at this stage and that it's okay to, you know, then decide, you know, this isn't the thing for us anymore and move on.

Tiffany Rochester: You asked a question before. And I went on my own tangent with it and I want to come back to it, which was about how parents can support their kids when they're asking those questions and when they're having those feelings.

And I think that is such an important thing to be looking at. So one of the things that I would say to parents is take the load off yourselves. The only thing that you need to do is provide a space where it's okay for your kid to have those feelings. You Don't need to rescue them. It's okay for them to feel frustrated.

It's okay for them to feel angry or sad. And so often if you just create a space where they can actually have those feelings and talk to you about the fact that they have those feelings, they'll figure it out by themselves. They'll be fine.

Whitney: And [00:26:00] that's like, as a parent, that's so hard. I find in general, just to be like, okay, they're allowed to have those feelings.

I don't have to, you know, fix it or whatever. And particularly, I think around divorce and separation, where it can be loaded with guilt and shame and resentment and questioning and doubt of your decisions and all these things. So it's like, oh, God, and the kids don't like it either. Sometimes I feel like I'm just taking all that on, which is Way too much.

Tiffany Rochester: Yes. And I think I suggest people have this mantra in their head of me not fixing the problem is fixing the problem. Just let them have the feeling. And it is so important because if we try and rescue them from these feelings, we're actually teaching them those feelings are dangerous and unhealthy. And so then they don't learn how to have those feelings.

And chances are you might not be good at having your feelings either, not because you're a separated parent, but because you're in our generation.

Whitney: Yes, we're all in therapy for learning how to actually feel our feelings is very challenging.

Tiffany Rochester: And so then the other part then I think that it's such a dangerous trap that parents try and avoid and sometimes accidentally fall into, particularly as [00:27:00] children move into those teen years.

They can ask such personal questions and intrusive questions about why did you break up? Whose fault was it? Who did what? And how much money does this parent give you? And who does this? And they're trying to ask whatever they like. They're children. They're not supposed to know what the boundaries are.

They can ask such intrusive questions that hit on so many trigger buttons. And sometimes the co parent in the other home might not be doing a great job of shielding and holding their boundaries themselves, which can make it even harder. And it's so important in that space to remember the children only need to know child content and that it's okay to say, I'm not going to answer that question because that knowledge doesn't belong with you.

Why our relationship ended is really personal and private to us. That's our story. And it's not important to. How we parent you or how we love you. And so I'm not going to answer that question for you. We're allowed to hold that line and protect their relationship because society teaches us that there are goodies and baddies [00:28:00] and heroes and villains.

And the narrative around separated families, as you would know, particularly in mainstream media, is one of estrangement and conflict and somebody was right and somebody was very wrong. I

Whitney: mean, I was a good person, a bad person. Yeah.

Tiffany Rochester: Right, and children experience that culture, so it's hard for them to understand that they don't need to pick a side, and it's okay to have a really strong relationship with both of you, and so that's why it is so important to hold that adult content at that adult level.

Whitney: That is so powerful for like any parent. And I, cause I think there can be a pressure to be like, you know, you want to be honest with your kids and answer their questions. But it's like a beautiful way of saying things of like, yeah, that's adult information that you don't need because it is, it becomes a burden on them.

And that's not fair. And like, they want to love both their parents. They love both their parents, their parents, they hold in the highest regard. So it's like unfair kind of on their relationship almost with their other parents. I'm imagine could become really confusing in a lots process. [00:29:00]

Tiffany Rochester: Absolutely. And I think the point you make that this is relevant for all parents is so true.

And I think another example would be that, as we know, we are in this cost of living crisis, no matter who you are and what your situation is. And in having an honest relationship with our children where we're authentic might mean that we're talking to them about, you know, we are being careful in our budgeting at the moment and we have to make decisions around what we fund.

So we can't spend endless money on everything because I have to be sensible with my funds. Which is being honest and authentic and child appropriate about the fact that there won't be money restrictions. But it's different from saying, I don't know how I'm going to pay the mortgage this month and if I have to pay for the school camp, then I can't get school uniforms.

Whitney: Yeah, and that creates fear and concepts that they don't understand, which I would imagine also just makes them scared and stressed out if they're like, I don't even really understand what you're talking about.

Tiffany Rochester: Exactly. And given that we already have a mental health crisis amongst our young people, we do not need to

Whitney: Yeah.

Gosh, it is. And that's so interesting [00:30:00] to hear that because my lens obviously is through little kids and it's kind of that, you know, little kids have all the feelings and emotions, but it's relatively simple and easy to answer their questions. And they just want to be loved and feel connected to their parents.

And they're kind of like, Oh, okay. Like I said, it's like if they understand kind of their flow of their life and feel like they still do have some understanding of how their life is going to go, then they're kind of happy with that. Whereas. God, teenagers are scary.

Tiffany Rochester: Look, it's true. And yet, because of the way that you and your co parent have stepped this through, because of your intentional space and the fact that you separated largely the Goldilocks zone, when your children are teens, you're going to be just fine.

Whitney: Yeah. And I imagine then too, you know, well, we haven't even hit the phase of like, Introducing partners or what that means. And it's like, I'm scared of, this is something I kind of mess up. My kids are right in the age where they're trying to understand what crushes are. And I don't think they really understand that yet, but they're still saying they have a crush on something, someone, you know, and they'll be like, Oh mom, who's your crush?

And I'll just be like, Oh, you know, the barista, I have a [00:31:00] crush on the barista or whatever. And they're like, do you have a crush on dad? And it's like, Oh, I don't know. I just like, that's so hard. Cause I want them to know that I still really care about their dad. Like he's an amazing person. I didn't want to break their hearts to be like, Oh no, I don't really have a crush on dad.

I don't know. Like it's hard to explain, but I'm fumbling through all these conversations.

Tiffany Rochester: Yes. And look, I think there's going to be so many points where kids just, what they read, that's parenting isn't where kids just floor us with a question that we weren't prepared for. I always had a view that I'll be very honest with my children around everything to do with our childbirth, for example.

And I still hold to that, but the very first time my child asked me where he had come out from, what I wanted to say was, well, I birthed you out of my vagina. It was amazing. But what I actually said was, well, I don't have my vagina, but some people I'm both out of their tummies. What am I doing?

Whitney: Oh, I know.

We just overcomplicate and they're just looking at us being like, why are you being so weird about this? And it's like, yeah, I thought I was going to nail this conversation. I [00:32:00] did not. Whoops. But

Tiffany Rochester: I do think with authenticity, with the way that you've spoken about him, that there is that space to be able to say, I really love your dad.

Whitney: Yeah, that's good. Okay. That's good. Yeah. And then it's like, we can love people in different ways. And All of these. You don't have a crush on your kids, do you? Yeah, because they're still trying to figure it out. Like, oh, can I marry, you know, my cousin? And we're like, no, well, why not? And they're like, oh God, I don't even know.

I don't even know where to start with all this. That's a whole other conversation, but it is hard sometimes seeing their questions. But I think it comes back to that point is sometimes we make it so much more than they are making it. Like we all went on holiday together, my ex husband and I and the kids for a week up in Noosa, which was great.

And the kids had an absolute ball, but you know, that was the first time it had really come up for them of like, that was probably the first time I'd heard them say like, why aren't you guys married anymore? And I think hard for them to see like, cause we were having a great time together, you know, we're sitting around eating meals together, having fun as [00:33:00] a family.

And they're like, but wait, you guys in basically in their own words were like, you guys enjoy each other's company. Obviously. Why wouldn't? You be married. And again, one of those moments where we're like, I don't know, it was hard. I can't even remember what I said. I think I just blocked it out.

Tiffany Rochester: Yeah. I think finding those answers is useful.

So that's, you know, you've got the time to think about like the next time you ask. And yet I think, you know, and I wonder part of your answer would be around the fact that you do get along really, really well because you're not partners. Cause you made better friends than lovers.

Whitney: Oh, I wish I'd thought of that.

That would have been great.

Tiffany Rochester: It's hard when you're in the motion of it, or unawares, all of a sudden isn't it?

Whitney: Probably had a couple lines and I'm just like, I don't know. Okay, so let's go back. We've told the kids and then what some advice for, you know, in those first Eight weeks of separation, which can often involve also moving of living arrangements.

You know, it's usually stressful conversations with lawyers happening in the background. Your relationships are breaking down. What do we do? How do we support the kids? How do we support [00:34:00] ourselves?

Tiffany Rochester: So, in terms of, again, the timing of the separation, I recommend highly that it happens somewhere during a school term for people who have.

Those children, because that means that the children have a five day structured routine where they are not with mom and dad. They had that escape from their parents to be able to just be kids, to not talk about it or talk about it, to do whatever the normal childhood experience is. So that helps them make that healthy transition.

It also gives them access to their teacher or school chaplain or school psych or anyone else around the place if they are having a hard time and they're not feeling like they want to talk to. their parent just at that moment. What that shared care transition looks like is going to be different according to the role of the parents, their work commitments, how they've shared care before and the developmental stages of the kids.

So that's going to look different across each family. And I would say, just get your first idea in place, knowing that it's, you don't know yet what your final position is. But in [00:35:00] terms of the stressful conversations with the lawyers in the background, I would say that is optional. I wouldn't recommend it.

So I'd say, yes, that first conversation is really crucial to help you get the right things in place. And then, Working with someone like myself as a co parenting coach gives you a process where you're working those decisions through together. And when things are highly amicable, or the intention is to be highly amicable, and I would say coachable, like you're willing to take on the advice and support of experts, you're both willing to be open and part of that process, then working with a Collaboratively trained coach and a collaboratively trained accountant or financial advisor might get you the, and often does, in my experience, gets you the bulk of the way there.

You can have a parenting agreement that feels good and solid because the two of you have shared the development of it rather than argued about it. And. The same for the financial separation. The only difference with the financial separation is that to [00:36:00] get, now this is speaking outside of my role, so there are tax and things that I don't want to know about happen if your financial separation is formally registered and, and that often does need legal advice.

And that legal advice can come Right at the end, again, with your beautifully collaboratively trained lawyers who are seeking to make sure that you've got a healthy agreement that's going to support your family through your children's childhood. And so their involvement can be minimal. And when the situation is more complex, and sometimes it is, not everybody has a co parent who wants to actively work with them, or there is just so much pain in that early time that it can be really difficult to Parts out, we can involve lawyers in a really healthy conversation around a table.

And so I've used the word collaborative and collaboratively trained a lot. Collaborative law has been around since the 1990s. It is a healthy, legal, beautiful way to wrap around a family in transition. And when people are going through a [00:37:00] collaborative process, everybody, every professional on the team is committed to finding a solution.

a solution together for the two homes. So they're working as one coherent team rather than two opposing sides. And rather than a magistrate overseeing the process, you can have a mental health child development specialist coaching the process. So rather than someone like me saying to people, look, when you go in there, try and do this.

Notice for this trigger that we can actually just be in there holding their space, orchestrating the whole lot. The lawyers that are in this space, we need the most beautiful values driven professionals. I love spending time with them, but it's often a culture shift for them. So if they go back to their original training at some point, cause they've slipped, the coach gets to guide them and say, wow, hang on.

That's been a bit adversarial. And so there's a whole cocoon around the family and that, I mean, doesn't that sound so much nicer, the stressful conversations

.

Whitney: Well, I was going to say, is this happening? This sounds like totally utopian and [00:38:00] amazing, but I'm assuming it's happening some places.

Tiffany Rochester: Yes, it is happening.

It's completely available. I'll make sure you have for the show notes the website for finding collaboratively trained professionals because it is a far more beautiful option, a healthy option for families.

Whitney: And those words you use there, like a family in transition, like what a totally different take that is.

And just even using those words to start the process sets out a completely different process than, you know, divorce and then you need lawyers. And like you say, immediately, like one family or two people that at one time were in life together are suddenly made to be like adversaries. And No one wins. And it's just such a weird thing that that's what we're told.

Okay. Well, you want your marriage to end. So now you need to be against each other and fight out whatever it is for custody or money or when it's like, no, this is our family. And now our family is transitioning to a different way. How can we get support? To do that in the way that's for everyone. And, you know, [00:39:00] financial considerations are very important to like, that's the reality.

You don't want to do this. That's leaving anyone in a bad place.

Tiffany Rochester: Look, that's right. And I think one of the other tragedies that happens for families is because there are so many people who said, we don't want to go adversarial. We don't want to engage lawyers. And so the alternatives I think they have is to try and work it out by themselves.

And we know that statistically 70 percent of separations do try and sort it out in what's called a kitchen table negotiation. And yet only 20 percent of people think that they have had a fair separation and are happy with what is sorted. Now, that doesn't mean they've ended up with something that's necessarily unfair because you don't know what you don't know.

But it means that that is a very large volume of people who didn't get support because they didn't want to go adversarial, who are really unhappy with what they've got and they don't know what else to do. Like, that's not okay. And I know we talked when we first connected about the need to get this information.

into the water supply. People need to know this before they've been thinking about separating. So that if their friend calls them and says, I'm separating, I've [00:40:00] got this option I can tell you about because spending that little bit of money on a preventative coaching experience, uh, collaborative team ends up saving us, I mean, literally hundreds of thousands of dollars.

And all those extra hours of stress and turmoil and anguish, let's just cut all of that. So you can get on with having your new fabulous chapter across you to spend all that money on holidays or private school or new wardrobe or whatever you choose.

Whitney: Yeah. And I think that's it. It can almost protect the co parenting relationship because if you're trying to battle it out yourself, or even if you're not battling it out, these conversations are hard to have.

Especially, yeah, emotions are running high, potentially, and you don't know how to do it. So it's like having a coach to kind of facilitate. It means there's someone, yeah, that's softening. That's what I felt like for me of like, they're helping us with the conversation. So we're not just left. And it's like, oh, it's Tiffany's asked this question of us, not I'm asking this question.

of you, kind of, and it's like, just changes the whole thing, and it protects the relationship, because it is [00:41:00] still a very important relationship, even in separation.

Tiffany Rochester: It is. It's important, even if you don't want it to be.

Whitney: Yeah, exactly. It's what we joke about all the time. It's like, whether you like it or not, I'm still here for the rest of time.

That's right. I'll annoy you for the rest of your life, whether you like it or not. Yeah, I mean, I just think all of this languaging is so cool, and that's it. That's all I want from this podcast, from my kids, of like, to be able to have this as part of the dialogue.