The Power of Separating Well - Choosing Peace Over Conflict (Part 1)

Emma Waddington: [00:00:00] We are all very human and fallible, and yet we live in a society that rewards pretending we're not fallible or the range of acceptable fallibility is narrow.

Chris McCurry: We are constantly comparing our insides to other people's outsides and feeling inadequate and guilty, even ashamed.

Emma Waddington: Trying to blend in means parts of ourselves will disappear, and we must then live in fear that we will be found out

Chris McCurry: here together. We will create a space where we can. Laugh, cry and carry our suffering and hurts lightly in the service of being deeply human. This is Life's Dirty. Little Secrets.

Emma Waddington: Welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets. I'm Emma Waddington.

Chris McCurry: And I'm Chris McCurry. And today it is our great privilege to have with us Tiffany Rochester, who's coming.

To us from Western Australia. Tiffany is a clinical psychologist and co-parenting code, [00:01:00] and she's the co-founder of Co-Parenting Companion to provide separated families with evidence-based compassionate collaborative solutions as an effective, accessible alternative to the traditional pathway of litigation.

The first of its kind in Australia. Co-parenting companion is a coaching service to support separated parents to co-parent. Simplicity and ease as they raise children in one family across two homes. Welcome, Tiffany.

Tiffany Rochester: Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. Really delighted to, um, have this conversation with you.

Thank you. Yes, it's great.

Chris McCurry: Oh, hope parenting. Oh, that is got to be a minefield.

Tiffany Rochester: I, I think that is definitely the, the dominant narrative about it, but I, I, I wonder if it, if that's gonna be the same conclusion by the time we get to the end of this conversation. I. I don't think it has to be.

Chris McCurry: Well, that would be wonderful.

So what got you into working with this particular group of individuals? Obviously [00:02:00] there's a high need for competent, compassionate people working with folks who are experiencing separate families or separate homes. One family,

Tiffany Rochester: you're right that there is a really high need and there is a really low level of supply and.

I think if you had met early career me, I wouldn't have predicted that this was quite where I was going to end up. Either across my career, I've always been committed to the pointy end or the sticky end, or the more complex end of FAM dynamics. And I, I think that was because of the way that I started my career was in, uh, a more systemic therapy program, and that was working with the families of repeat juvenile offenders.

And I, I don't know. Well, I think at that time I thought it couldn't get much more complex than that. What that gave me was a really excellent grounding in how important it is to look at systems and context [00:03:00] to understand what it is that is driving really difficult and challenging behaviors. And what I saw was families in desperate need of compassionate care, of a nonjudgmental stance and of somebody leaning in to say.

I really wanna help you 'cause I can see this pathway isn't serving you. And I fell in love with working with the context and systems that way. As I've moved through my career around a decade later, I started working with families who were caught in family court going through the litigation process. And the way that they would come into my practice was that they had been mandated to come and see me by a magistrate.

They had been given the goals that they needed to work on in their therapy with me, and it was reportable. So I would send a report back to the magistrate about how these people were doing in the therapy process. None of those contingencies set up a [00:04:00] really beautiful safe zone to be able to do vulnerable work.

And I was struck by how much this was way too late in the process. How much. Money people had already spent in legal fees instead of on holidays with their children, or not even holidays, just a a, a general pleasant life with them. How many years had been lost in stress and turmoil because the answers that they had sought had been to an adversarial pathway and there hadn't been early intervention service saying, here, let me walk with you.

Let me help you get through this. So. It was time to do something. It was time to take the, the science that we know works for shaping behavior and helping people to have positive, healthy relationships and support these people in those early stages so that they could have that pathway as well. It is, so

Emma Waddington: thinking about [00:05:00] cases that I've worked with and how they have sort of ended up in the courts, it would've been incredible to have someone like you.

Earlier on in the process, and I think part of it is the lack of understanding that it is possible to do things differently, isn't it really?

Tiffany Rochester: It is. I think it's two things. I think one is the dominant narrative that we have around what separation looks like is one of estrangement and conflict, and that's played out over and over again and we watch.

You know, networks of, of friends and family wrap around a person when they're going through a separation and they do the loving and caring thing of, I'm with you, I'm on your team. But often what that looks like is, and I am no longer on theirs, and can then reinforce a narrative around conflict and estrangement.

And then there's not good knowledge of alternative pathways. So we have a lot of [00:06:00] people who. Desire to have a a low conflict, amicable separation. They don't wanna go down that legal pathway. In fact, we know that 70% of separating couples don't want to go down a litigation pathway. And so they reach what's referred to as a kitchen table negotiation where they try and work it out on their own.

And the difficulty with that is that they're there with all of their pain, all of their grief, all of their anger and hurt. It's incredibly painful when relationships end and in all of that, they're taking the skills that they currently have, which might not be the best communication skills because they're in a dynamic of conflict and that's what they're taking to try and figure this out in amicable solution.

It's so terribly unfair for them to feel this pressure that they need to do it on their own. If they don't know that there's any other option than going down a legal pathway, [00:07:00] you can really understand why they would give that a red hot go. That's what I see is, is families who just don't know what else to do or where else to go, they don't know that there's other options available, and that's when they get stuck in these unworkable dynamics.

Emma Waddington: Yes, and you're absolutely right. It's a time when they are struggling. There's a lot. Of grief and heartache. You know, perhaps there's even been betrayal. It's really hard to want to have a conversation with your partner. And then there's all the anxiety around children, you know, and we have a lot of data coming out about the impact of separation on children, which increases the anxiety and the worry, and I think it escalates the emotion, and ironically makes it all worse.

Because if I'm right in, in saying that the, the research really points to the real [00:08:00] damage or the real complexity for children is when they experience a lot of conflict, even in, in couples that remain together, it's the conflict more than the separation per se, which hurts them the most. So, and people know this, right?

We know this as adults. We need to be mindful, and yet it's like creating more anxiety because you know, we can't have conflict and so we get more upset and more, more worried and that just adds, sort of floods us with emotion and makes us even less effective when it comes to these conversations.

Chris McCurry: Okay, here's a dirty little secret. Parenting through big emotions is hard. Kids get anxious, they get angry, they spiral into disappointment, and [00:09:00] sometimes we have no idea how to help them through it.

Emma Waddington: That's why we're so excited to share that we now have three children, workbooks that actually give kids and us the tools to handle these messy feelings.

Follow just in case as he faces his worries, the glum twins as they deal with disappointment and Max Cross as she works through anger.

Chris McCurry: Here's what we love about these books. They don't pretend hard feelings don't exist. Instead, they show kids that worry, sadness, and anger are totally normal. We teach practical ways to move through them so that these feelings don't take over.

We're incredibly proud of these workbooks and we really hope they help families who are in the thick of it.

Emma Waddington: You can find all three at bookstores everywhere.

Tiffany Rochester: Look, that's absolutely right. So we know that 21% of kids from separated parents end up with. Difficulties [00:10:00] across mental health, social and academic outcomes, romantic attachments, behavioral issues, and that's twice the rate that we see in Intact families. And you're also right that children in Intact families where there are a lot of conflict between the parents have the same issues as children who are growing up across two homes where there is a lot of conflict.

The words around, you know, well shield your child from conflict. They're so easy to say, but the skill of it is really hard because it's not just, it's not just overt conflict about whether the parents swear at each other or whether there's physical aggression between them. It's also, or the covert, the tension that they can see across a parent's face when the other parent calls or when children are made to be the messengers because the, the parents.

Uh, uh, in such high distress and, and, and often those decisions around how to do that are being made with the intention of [00:11:00] caring for the child with the intention of doing what's in their best interests. But what we have, what we haven't been doing, is working with parents to, to help them develop the self-care toolkit for.

How do you actually do this? What does that look like? How do you respond to your children when they ask you really hard questions about the other parent and you think that they're justified questions because you are hurt too. What do you do? When your co-parent is late returning kids, what do you do when your kid is three versus seven versus 13 when you're trying to figure out how many nights they should have their head on a pillow at your house and a head on the pillow at somebody else's?

There's so much that people have to figure out in this space, and hopefully for, for most people, this is the only time that they're doing this or, or maybe a second time, occasionally a third time. People who are separating are not [00:12:00] experts in separation. And so, so often, not only is it that it is difficult to know the how in the shielding children from conflict part, it's also really difficult to intuit what is in the best interest.

How do we step this through? And what I'd wanna say to anyone listening I is you're not supposed to know, like you're not supposed to have this in the back of your head just in case your relationship breaks down. It is so useful to have a conversation with somebody who is an expert in child development or human behavior, who can sit and bounce with you around what it is that your children need, what it is that your family system needs as it goes through this transition to do it in a really healthy way.

Often

Emma Waddington: I say to couples, 'cause I mostly work with couples who wanna stay together, but those that are considering separation is that you need the same skills [00:13:00] to separate as you do, to stay together, as in our ability to treat each other respectfully and kindly to listen to consider our partners.

Perspective to influenced by our partner's perspective sort of continues. Even when we separate, we don't cease to need those skills. It just becomes harder because there's more feelings or more difficult, challenging feelings towards your partner. But those skills continue. Yeah, we need to continue to develop them and all.

It's so powerful to hear. To be validated in the way that you've just said that you're not expected to know how to do this, because it is complicated and it evolves as the children grow and as situations. And so the ability to continue to have these conversations is paramount, [00:14:00] and to get the support to do that is really important.

Tiffany Rochester: Yes, you're, you're exactly right that it's, you do need the same skills and you need them at a higher level of competency. And so it is really important, the same skills, but a different lens. So, uh, one of the things I think is difficult for parents as they make that transition is that the relationship as co-parents is quite different in the boundaries and expectations than it is when you are a, a romantic couple.

One of those that I think is useful to be across is when. When, when you're in a relationship with somebody, you want what's best for them, you want them to do well in their career, you want 'em to have healthy connections with their friends and family. And we orient a lot of our behavior around trying to really provide a context where that can happen when they are your co-parent.

We wanna orient all of our behavior around how do I get the best outta this person for where I need my life to go? So [00:15:00] rather than. Looking at their broader perspective, we're looking at what do I need from them for our children to thrive and for my life to thrive? It's a different, so same skillset, but a different lens, which takes a lot of the pressure off where some of the conflict ruptures can happen.

And it also makes it clearer around which boundaries do you need to hold with a co-parent? What level of involvement do you need to have in the various steps in their life, and which ones are you now allowed to give yourself permission to care less about? To let them do things their own way and to seek their own.

Their own information sources, their own supports, sources around those.

Emma Waddington: Agreed. And as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking about those, some of the, the, the challenges that might arise emotionally for an individual if there has been, you know, betrayal or a lot of hurt, that it's really important that they get help for that.

Because being [00:16:00] able to do. Have these conversations, navigate this, the world of co-parenting. I talk to my couples and I call them Jedi skills. Like these are real Jedi skills and that we need to be in a good place to be able to have those conversations. And you know, and timing is really important. Making sure that, and you're in a place where you can.

Have a reasonable conversation, but that you're getting support, you know, perhaps from an individual therapist, from from your community to feel validated in your pain. And so that doesn't come into those conversations.

Tiffany Rochester: Yeah, so I think you're right into the, those Jedi skills. It is knowing how to have your emotions rather than your emotions having you.

How to change the relationship that you have with your thoughts so they don't have that same pull over you, [00:17:00] and that when those are in place, then yes, it becomes so much easier to step into the conversations or to choose the timing or to choose the tone and the action. And I think also that piece around who do you wanna be?

How do you wanna carry yourself in this? What do you want your legacy to be? What story do you want your children to tell? And of course, as we're talking through all of these themes, we're talking through definitely the psychological flexibility model that comes out of contextual behavioral science. And I think there is such richness in the holistic framework of that model for looking at how do you.

Care for yourself so that the actions that you take reflect who you care to be. And that does mean knowing what to do as those thoughts and feelings show up in your body because it's a tsunami. There is so much that happens in that space and, and often parents are so focused, understandably and appropriately focused on [00:18:00] how are, how are the children going to go?

Are the children okay? What do the children need? And the part that they're missing is you might not need to get your child into a therapist. You just might need some care, some nurture yourself and, and maybe with your individual therapist and maybe working with a coach with, uh, the two of you together to look at that, to, to help you be healthy and feel strong within yourself to be able to do those actions that are really complex and hard.

Chris McCurry: You mentioned psychological flexibility. One of the best definitions. I've come across was actually at a talk at a conference a couple of years ago, and the presenter said that psychological flexibility was the ability to navigate challenging situations effectively, even in the presence of difficult thoughts and feelings.

Tiffany Rochester: Exactly. That

Chris McCurry: just a nice, elegant definition as opposed to some of the nerdy ones, uh, that are out there. But yeah, [00:19:00] that's the thing to be able to hold all that. And not get swept away by this particular idea or emotion to keep your eye on the prize. It's incredibly difficult.

Tiffany Rochester: I think the other part that's in there as well is the teasing out the narrative that we have created about what behaviors mean and the very practical, what we could observe with a video camera of the behaviors that are in front of us.

And so often when. I'm sitting with, uh, a couple of, and, and we're stepping through what is happening in their conflict. The stories that they have about the ruptures are so different from what the other party understands is going on, and so sometimes we will have. For example, a story of that, you know, they're blocking me.

They don't want me to be involved in the child's life, you know, or they, they don't want to be helpful. And what's happening is the other parent is feeling flooded if they're getting a whole heap of information from the other parent in a way that, that isn't good for, for their [00:20:00] system, and might be in verbal confrontation where they do better with email and notice.

And so the other parents, they go, no, I'm, I'm trying, I'm trying, but you, you know, you keep hitting me when I'm in threat mode. And so. Even being able to just step away from this is the story I have and get down into this, is the behavior that I see is such a powerful tool there. I mean, there's not enough at a systemic level.

I think teaching people how to detangle from the narratives and, and get down into what's actually happening in, in the behavior, but understanding what it looks like when your co-parent is in threat mode and how that is different from when they are feeling safe or when they are feeling motivated.

Knowing how to soothe your co-parent when they're in threat mode, and that that doesn't mean acquiescing to them or lying down and being a doormat, which is often the, you know, the polarity that people have in their mind that it means so that they can calm their co-parent, bring their defenses down [00:21:00] in order to look at where is our shared value in this space?

Where do we have similar aspirations for what we're trying to achieve and how can we work together to do that?

Chris McCurry: Well, when people get stressed they get very binary. Absolutely. And uh, and they get very all or none. And it's really hard to extricate yourself from that Takes a lot of mindfulness. And you also, something you're touching on is one of my favorite topics is mentalizing the concept of sort of interpersonal mindfulness where you're thinking about the other person, thinking about you.

You're thinking about their intentions and that tends to go out the window when we get stressed because you know, there are, it's all about me. We essentially become four year olds. We become, become highly egocentric, very rigid, very binary.

Tiffany Rochester: Yeah, we do, and, and, and that's absolutely geared around that [00:22:00] evolutionary wiring that we have.

When we're in that zone, we think we're fighting. If we feel we cross our whole body, like we're fighting for our lives, we are fighting for survival, and things need to be black and white when, when we're fighting for survival. I've often thought with my own children when they are feeling frightened or or scared.

In my head, there's this narrative of why do you have to be so ugly when you are scared? Like it would be, it would be so much easier to lean in being compassionate and kind if you could just be pretty, when you're uncomfortable. It doesn't work that way. And so knowing that you, that is not the best place to have a negotiation.

That is not the best time to come up with new solutions because the person is in that binary space. They can't hear them, they're not open to them. We need to bring their arousal down. We need to create that context of safety so that they can be open so the rest of them can come online. And of course, because we are looking at people going through their darkest days, often [00:23:00] they've been spending way more time in their threat zone with each other.

And so they can also have this enduring narrative that this is their true colors or this is who they really are. But what they've actually seen is this is who they are under. Chronic stress and chronic threat mode, and all of us go to that binary space when we are in threat mode. And I never want to be judged as who I am as the entire person, based on who I am when I'm under threat and fighting for survival.

Emma Waddington: That's so powerful and I'm thinking of, of a previous conversation we had a couple of days ago on the secret power of disagreements. Yael who was on the podcast talked about, you know, a real shift of mindset when we're in a disagreement, how, you know, the habitual. This regression. Just seeing our perspective and really getting really fused with our version of the [00:24:00] world and our version of this person.

Who is now a threat. And that really, in those moments, our perception is very limited. And like you said, Chris, it, it's regress. You know, we regress in those moments and we're very binary. And what you said that I don't want to be defined by the way I am when I'm in this regressed state is so true. How do you help couples, partners in those moments?

To change their mindset where, yeah, what are the steps or what do you help them see? Because that is such a sticky, tight place

for many.

Tiffany Rochester: Yes, yes, yes, it is. And we, and we don't wanna be trying to do the intervention right there in that moment when all of that is present. And, and particularly because also so many of our memories are encoded with emotion.

So when that emotion is really high and hard. All of the perception that's available to [00:25:00] us is around every negative moment that that tapped into with that person. And across our history. When I'm, if I'm with two people together, we're in a coaching session and we're looking at something that is a tricky moment between them, sometimes what we'll look at is what is the kindest way that you could consider their behavior?

What is the kindest interpretation we could give here? And definitely generating multiple hypothesis. So, so like, yes, you could be right. They could be doing this to just make your life a living hell and because they really hate you and that's all they think about all the time. Or it could be that they're really stressed, or it could be that they didn't realize you needed that piece of information when you did, or it could be this or this.

What is the kindest interpretation? Knowing that we don't need to chase whether or not that interpretation is true or accurate. But looking for, if I choose that interpretation, what does that make available for me? And usually what that makes available is a softening or a compassion [00:26:00] or a kindness. It, it opens up a space to respond in a way that is more aligned with who they care to be and less aligned with escalating conflict The way though that.

That I've set up a lot of how we do things at co-parenting Companion is, uh, one of our programs is our co-parenting intensive reset, and that's a hybrid model of, of live coaching with me and online video content. So much video of me that I tell them they'll dream about me in their sleep. It's probably true.

It's a lot of me, but, but that's very, it's very deliberate. To provide the content in that way. One of them is because it makes it far more affordable and accessible that, that families who are trying to figure out, especially in this massive cost of living crisis that we have right now, uh, it means that it makes it a far more affordable program because it's not relying on me to have to be physically present to deliver e every part of it.[00:27:00]

But the thing that I think is more valuable in it is that they can do those components at home. Where they are comfortable, where they are safe when no one else is watching, including their co-parent, because it does take some space to be able to look at who am I? What is my part in this? What am I not proud of turning towards the parts of me that I might not wanna ever put up on YouTube or show to a coach or a therapist until I'm really safe and I definitely don't want my co-parent to know about.

Because the more that we know, the painful parts of us and the unacknowledged parts of us. The more we're able to soothe them and come then and take care of them. It's very hard to take care of a stranger. And often these emotions have been so scary. They are treated like strangers and they're not understood.

They're not heard. And so they get louder and louder and louder. So we get to do that part of actually understanding who we are and what shapes us. And then the next part, which actually gets to your question, I promise I haven't lost track of it, Emma, [00:28:00] around looking at how do you soothe that? How do you bring in a compassionate.

Approach a stance towards those feelings. How do you help them to be there and be less hurtful for you as you have them? When you have those thoughts that are shooting around in your mind, looking at how do you diffuse from them? So how do we play with them in a way that is different? And Chris, I'm not sure how you will feel about this, that there's a lot of AI options that have had I include in there as well because as technology evolves.

How wonderful to be able to bring that in as a hack. So we look at a lot of ways to use chat GPT to simplify the message that you might have gotten an email from a co-parent, or to take those words and pop them into a limerick or put it into iic penter, or help you then formulate a response that is kind and firm.

Holds boundaries and disrespectful so that you don't have to spend hours [00:29:00] crafting that yourself so that we can have this space of, I feel triggered. Then I've got these skills that I can quickly pop in to reduce my sense of trigger, and then I've got this next toolbox that I can use to quickly respond.

In a way that is values consistent so that then I can get back to the rest of my life, that I'm living apart from this person, that I can be present with my kids, that I can be present with my family and friends because this part is now far more contained. So a lot of practical skills and jeepers, it is easier to learn those on your own.

In a supported environment, coming back to the coaching calls to then check out like which, which parts of that have you got? Which parts are hard? Which parts do you not know quite how to apply to your exact circumstance? The other thing that we have available within that then is the option between individual one to one coaching, but my preferred way of working with people is in our group coaching program because then there's also that connection to other like-minded co-parents, people who are [00:30:00] having the same difficulties, who are having the same struggles.

And who have the same vision and mindset of creating that one family across two homes of being amicable, of making collaborative co-parenting the dominant narrative. And at the moment, they're counterculture. But by the time we're done, it's not going to be

Emma Waddington: so empowering, isn't it? The message that I'm hearing is that.

Even when we separate in a place where there's a lot of pain and struggle, we can still separate amicably. Like there is a process by which that can happen. It's a process and or lots of pieces to it, but it is possible and it's in the service of our own wellbeing as well as the wellbeing of our children and.

Potentially having [00:31:00] a, like you said, one family. What I see when I work with single parents who have separated in not very amicable ways is how much loneliness there is. Yes, it's a very lonely place to separate and not be able to rely on a co-parent. So to recognize that this process is important for you as a parent, as well as your child, I think that's really key because it doesn't have to be this hard.

Even when terrible things have happened, it doesn't need to be this hard. And it's worth spending time working with someone like yourself, Tiffany, and getting the right resources because it is possible. And like you said right at the beginning. I think that you're absolutely right. We also, tribal ballistic humans that we will gather our army, our tribe, and inherent in that it's an [00:32:00] us versus them.

It's, you know, me and my community are supporting my perspective, validating me, and reinforcing this binary, sometimes binary approach. Which can be incredibly painful and unhelpful, even though in the short term it helps us feel seen and understood in the long term. It leads to more adversarial relationship with your ex partner and your co-parent, and ultimately makes it much harder for you to be not just a parent, but just to exist really.

And that's process that you were describing of using ai? I was. We had a conversation with a Diana Hill just yesterday about wise effort and the idea that we should think about what we put our energy into so that we're deplete. And I was talking to a client who is a solo [00:33:00] parent because of the way the separation went and talking to her about how limited resources and why she puts her energy in.

You're absolutely right. A lot of energy goes into how I'm going to respond to my partner or my ex-partner, how I'm gonna make sure they understand how hard it is and how unreasonable they are. That takes a lot of energy

and the just don't have a lot of, because when we're solo parenting, it takes a lot to do that and to look after ourselves and.

To ensure that we have lots of different pieces working in our life. So I love that idea of how we allocate resources using ai. That's phenomenal. I hadn't thought of that, but it makes complete sense. Let's reduce the load on ourselves and at the same time become more skillful.

Tiffany Rochester: It, it's so important, I think to to know that exactly that unhealthy [00:34:00] relationships can end in really healthy ways, and I love that concept that you spoke to around.

Wise effort. And then that example that you gave that is so common about, you know, I want them to, I want 'em to take responsibility. I want 'em to understand how terrible they've been. I want them held to account. And then when I look at the effort that's involved in that, I think, well, if they didn't listen to you when you were together, if you couldn't achieve that change when you were in love, then what on earth makes you think that they're going to listen to you now?

And. You've probably tried that over and over again, and it's not getting you anywhere good. So looking at that different lens that I spoke about earlier. Then we wanna look at instead. What's the behavior change that you wanna see? Because it's likely that the strategy of trying to get them to take responsibility and admit how terrible they are, is not getting you closer to the behavior you actually want from them to make your life [00:35:00] easier.

I, I think this is a far broader conversation, just separate parents, but, but it comes down to the doing what actually works rather than this society message we have about what is supposed to work. And. What actually works might not look like that person ever saying, yes, I have been a complete and utter jerk and it's all my fault.

Conversely, though, sometimes that's exactly where we do get to when we help people bring their defenses down, when we help them know how to look towards their emotions with love and care, and how to then shave their own behavior to be values aligned and when they interact with their co-parent. I have witnessed the most beautiful conversations between separated parents where each of them have apologized for what they see.

They contributed to the breakdown, where they see they have made things harder. They're the conversations that give me goosebumps and they make me wanna cry. I can't believe I get to [00:36:00] bear a witness to them, and when I see them happen. For anyone who's listening and thinks this is impossible, when I see them happening, and I think back to when I first started working with these pairs.

We wouldn't have, based on what's out there in the dominant narrative, we wouldn't have predicted that they would ever move to that space of being able to do that. And more powerfully for people who are working with a really tricky co-parent who are thinking that there's no way, there's no way we'll ever get them there.

When we have just one parent who steps in and decides to do that work for themselves, decides to change the way that they are behaving towards their co-parent in order to bring their co-parent defenses down and taking good care of themselves. We see changes in those co-parents too, by default. Of course we do because we are people who interact with each other, and so even there, we have had examples of parents who have never gone near a coach, possibly never gone near a therapist who have come back to the parent who has done the work and apologized for their part in [00:37:00] the conflict.

So there is a lot that is possible. This space and my goodness me, it's so, it's so worth it for the change in that dynamic, for the reduction in that stress. It is easier to do it right at the start is definitely an easier thing. My favorite time to start working with parents is right at the point that they're about to tell the kids that they're separating because then it's, it's quite easy to get a good co-parenting dynamic in starting at that point.

It is harder, definitely doable, but harder if it's more entrenched and it's been several years, but it is not, it is, it doesn't have to be minefield and it doesn't have to be complicated and extremely hard work if parents step in. Right at that first part,

Chris McCurry: what you mentioned about the other parent, the one who has not been, you know, receiving the beneficial coaching and [00:38:00] counseling.

I mean, to this point, seemingly on their own I think is, is marvelous. And it, it does speak to what we were talking with Diana yesterday about it. I mentioned Grace and she gave me kind of a quizzical look, but I, I think there is something to be said about, you know, creating a different field. Mm-hmm. You know, a different context and whether that's two people together or it's simply radiating out from.

One of the individuals, I think it does impact people and in subtle, maybe not so subtle way. So I believe in that. Um, and I have nothing against AI as long as it doesn't like take over the world and put me to work some. I fully agree with you though

Tiffany Rochester: though, Chris, that I, I also talk about grace a lot, about having grace with each other.

Really important concept.

Chris McCurry: Yeah. There's an energy there that is, you know, healing and I think can permeate things.

Emma Waddington: I think it was [00:39:00] another podcast guest of ours who said, the more you give up attempts to control the other person, the more influence you can have.

Tiffany Rochester: Yes,

Emma Waddington: it's paradoxical, and of course you can't try to control them less in order to have more influence.

It doesn't work like that. Like the intention can't be to ultimately change that behavior. But listening to you. Describe that process by which we let go of our need for them to do something like apologize, or express regret or change their behavior. The more likely we are to feel heard and understood and potentially get the apology, but you have to really give up on that attempt.

You have to really come to it,

Chris McCurry: giving up, being right. Yeah,

Tiffany Rochester: giving up, absolutely. Giving up the [00:40:00] fight to be right. And I, I think you're, you're right, we can't do one to do the other. And yet how liberating is that to give up, trying to control them. You are not having control over them anyway, but to be able to let that go, how much more energy there is for other areas of your life.

And, and I was thinking this is something we know very well as parents. One of the things that I would hear a lot from children that I remember having. You know, it's kind of my mouth like this in my childhood, and what I unfortunately sometimes hear from my own kids is that moment when they're about to do a chore, they're about to do a task and the parent jumps in and prompts for it, and the reaction to the child is like, now I don't wanna do it like I was gonna do it, but now you've told me I'm gotta do it now I don't wanna do it.

And that's where the rupture happens. It's exactly that. It's just generalizing that across to this new dynamic.

Emma Waddington: Yeah. And I totally get that in my adult world, to be honest. It's not just [00:41:00] children. I agree. There's something about Yeah. Being seen that's so important in that. Right. And if people jump in and tell us what to do, they take away our autonomy.

Tiffany Rochester: I, uh, refer to it often as the, uh, rage against the machine button.

Chris McCurry: Well, it's reactance is the psychological term and it shows up a lot in healthcare. You know, you need to stop smoking and patient goes off and smokes three packs that day. Yeah. Simply because they were told they can't do it anymore.

Tiffany Rochester: And we certainly see that in, in a lot of the stock standard co-parenting courses.

They're full of do this, don't do that, do this, don't do that. And they're condescending and they're patronizing. The parents that I serve. Don't need to be told to work in the best interest of their children. That is exactly what they're trying to do. That drives every part of them. That is not the problem.

The problem is how on earth do I do that when my heart is hurting, when my [00:42:00] world is fit into when I don't want my children to be away from me and when I have no idea how I'm gonna make these finances work. That is the part that we need. Not what do you do, but Oh my goodness me. How That's

Emma Waddington: right. Yeah.

And it's so invalidating to, to hear those messages, like as a parent, that as if I didn't want to put my children first. Right? Of course I do. And I think there is that message isn't there? That, you know, and sometimes keeps, like I, I, when I'm working with couples that are very volatile, there's a lot of fighting.

You know, they stay together for the kids and that's really complicated. Because it's not that simple.

Tiffany Rochester: I wouldn't advise it either. I mean, I would certainly advise doing the work with you, like I I, I'm certainly on teams. Stay together, find a solution, recruit in the help and work to find that way out. And if that is not available, when that pathway isn't open, then the courageous thing to do and the best way to look after your children and [00:43:00] yourself is.

To allow that to end is to step into a separation, and for the reasons that you highlighted right at the start, Emma, that children are far healthier if they grow up across two homes without exposure to conflict than being exposed to a toxic dynamic in the house. Not to mention what the parents are modeling about what a healthy romantic attachment.

Looks like. So there is, it is courageous to leave. It's also important to do that when that is the, when the pathway for staying is no longer available

Chris McCurry: in the time we have left. This sounds like a fantastic program, and I'm wondering, is anyone else doing anything remotely like this, say here in the States or.

Anywhere else, are you aware, Tiffany, of, of any other programs that are like this? Or are you gonna have to be the one to travel around the world and do [00:44:00] workshops and train people?

Tiffany Rochester: I don't know any like this, Chris. I, I do know of other co-parenting programs. A lot of them are targeted around how to get through mediation, which, uh, and that conversation for another days, I, I'd far prefer for, for people to look at collaborative practice.

Uh, but, but how to get through the separation or they're the, you know, the what to do, not how to do it. One of the things that really I found so surprising within our own field of science is that. Contextual behavioral science has so much richness to it, so much depth that serves these families. And yet I wasn't seeing any of this at any of of our conferences amongst our peers.

I think there is Commit, commit and act, have done incredible work in this space at a systemic level in Sierra Leone and that sort a different lens not working at people at point of separation, but more at the point of staying together in a healthy way. And that work is absolutely phenomenal and deeply inspiring.

I, I don't know all of the [00:45:00] providers across the states. We, we do, uh, serve people internationally, so our programs are available to people in the states, and sometimes the time zones even work out really well for that. But yes, doing more training, getting this information out there, letting people know that there is an alternative is something that I'm very fierce about.

And anybody who would like to join with me on this. Crusade is very, very welcome. There, there are, there are a lot of people across the family law space who do share a vision for healthy separations, for non adversarial solutions. So there's a lot of people who have the energy and drive for this change, for this shift.

But using the science that we have to support people in this way, I'm not seeing that done anywhere else at this time. I'm so

Emma Waddington: glad you are. It's a really important, it's a really important piece. 'cause inevitably we know that people separate, like we can't pretend that's not [00:46:00] happening. In fact, I often see people that should have separated a while back.

Yes. Um, end up, you know, making things terrible for the family. And so I think the message that you can. Do a good job at separating and that it can be better for the children and better for you is a really important one. 'cause like you said, it is the most courageous choice sometimes.

Chris McCurry: We, we will put your website on in the show notes for this episode and, uh, if you think of this, of any other resources that might be useful that we could put in there as well, please.

Send us to us and, and we'll, we'll put whatever we can there. But this has, this has been marvelous. It's, it's awesome.

Tiffany Rochester: Thank you so much for the opportunity to have this conversation. I work with the most beautiful parents and the work that we do lights me up completely. They are the most beautiful people doing the hardest [00:47:00] work in their darkest days, and to be able to.

Let other people know that there are options available for them is is deeply important to me. So thank you so much for inviting me to be your guest. Thank you. Thank you and thank you for all that

Emma Waddington: you do.

Chris McCurry: Thanks so much for tuning into the Life's Dirty Little Secrets podcast.

Emma Waddington: If you have any feedback for us or secrets for future episodes, you can email us at Life's Dirty Little Secrets podcast@gmail.com.

Chris McCurry: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Life's Dirty Little Secrets, or on Facebook at Life's Dirty Little Secrets podcast.

Emma Waddington: We invite you to follow, rate and review us on wherever you listen to this podcast. It is the best. Way to get our podcast out in front of new listeners.

Chris McCurry: We'll be back in a couple weeks with more.

See you then.

Emma Waddington: See you then.