Transforming Co-Parenting After Separation

Dr. Jodi Richardson: Hello, I'm Dr. Jody Richardson and you are listening to Well Hello Anxiety, a podcast where we end the struggle with anxiety and build our toolkit of practical skills to thrive.

Hello, welcome back to another episode. Today I have a special guest to talk to us about a topic that we've not covered here before on the podcast. Differences in communication, parenting styles, schedules. Big emotions, conflict, financial responsibilities, hurt, feelings, anger, and change. These are all common challenges for anyone who is co-parenting, but this is by no means an exhaustive list.uh, WA is Western Australia, which is on the opposite side of the country to where I am.

Tiffany, before we sort of dive into kind of really what's happening at a systemic level and. The challenges, uh, but also some of the ways that things can be done differently. I'm really interested to know what led you to do this work, because it's not easy work, is it? It's not easy. And so I'm curious to know a bit more about your story.

Tiffany Rochester: Uh, yeah, look, it's, it is interesting. It's, when I say that it's not easy, I would say that I, I love this work so much that it is the only thing that I want to do or care to do. Uh, but you're right. Uh, that I, I wouldn't have always predicted that certainly early career TIF didn't, uh, forecast this into my future.

And so how did I end up here? I started, uh, fresh out of my, um, psychology degree, working for corrective services, uh, supporting families of severe repeat juvenile offenders, and, um. I, I promise you there is a link there to separate a families. It's, it's coming of, uh, the work there was really fantastic for developing my awareness of how much context changes behaviors and how much what we see happening for an individual isn't so much to do with what is happening inside of their body so much as it is to do with the system that they find themselves moving in.

I stepped into that work because I was passionate about. Teenagers and really wanting to support the growth and development of teenagers. What I learned. Very fast was that if I was serious about working with teenagers and protecting their outcomes, I needed to get really good with working with their tired, exhausted, under-resourced parents.

And so right from the get go, I received excellent training and supervision and guidance in working with a systemic lens when we're protecting the developmental trajectory of children. From there, I, I, you know, kind of had a, a bit of a journey through working with women in the perinatal space and spent some time working with families with raising neurodivergent children and kind of fell in to working with court involved families.

And what I found when I started to work with court involved families was there was this massively under-resourced population. Who are doing it really, really tough. Because if you have a kid who has a medical diagnosis, then people will put in place a, a, a casserole roster and um, and, and step in and set up GoFundMe campaigns for out-of-pocket expenses.

Or if you have a child with, um, a disability, there's. Support groups and, and, and guides along the road to, to step in and, and resource you and support you. There's NDIS funding to help out, and there should be, those supports need to be in place. But our separated families we're doing it really, really tough and we're in a circumstance where often our colleagues would turn them away because working with separated parents was too tricky and in instead they were.

Ending up being served by the lawyers who, who would take them on, who are really, really good at, uh, winning arguments and fights, but don't have the nuanced training that, that we do in our field. And so I started working with his families. But by the time they had come to see me, they had been sent in by a magistrate who had told them that they needed to get some therapy, and often they'd been told what their goals were and that I would report on them whether or not they achieved those outcomes, which doesn't really set anybody up for success.

That was hard work and it was unfair work. It was unfair to the families. Because that point is far too late. The point where they needed someone like myself to step in was right at that moment when they realized it was time for the relationship to end, to nurture them and care for them and hold their hand through that process.

So having come in from that sticky end of working with those who are in high conflict and engaged in the family court system for years, I knew that I wanted to do things differently and to step in and provide the early intervention model that was missing.

Dr. Jodi Richardson: Mm-hmm. I really admire that. You, you have certainly been in the trenches and worked really hard and I, I understand what you're saying about how unfair it was.

For the families to be sort of sent to therapy. And it's like, well, you're being sent and you're being assessed. And it's more, it must feel like more conflict for them or, and, and difficult for you too as a professional because, uh, they know they're kind of being reported back on and it just doesn't set you up to be on the same team working towards a really good outcome.

And, and so. Yeah, you've certainly, uh, certainly earned your stripes, Tiffany and I I do love that you've, you've been able to kind of see that gap and create a way to be able to work with families, sort of, you know, earlier down the road, uh, so that you can make a really powerful difference in their lives.

And also there for the children of course, who can e experience a great. Deal, a fallout from, um, the separation of their parents under adversarial conditions. And so, uh, I know that you are very, very passionate about supporting the whole family and wrapping around the whole family to sort of, as you say, walk with them through these challenges.

Uh, what, what are you. Finding frustrating about the, the system and the way that that's operating and affecting, uh, outcomes for families who don't have the support of someone like you to work with them?

Tiffany Rochester: Yes. Uh, look, I have a lot of frustration. So, um, I am quite unapologetically keen to see family court become, uh, something that we only see in museums as a, as an old barbaric process that, uh, was never the right solution for families in crisis.

And that's to be really clear, that's not an anti-illegal profession stance because the legal profession is incredibly useful and helpful and important. It is a system issue that is the problem. We know that when. When parents separate that 79% of children are going to be just fine. And I think that that statistic is really, really important to know.

So for anybody who is listening, 79% of the kids are gonna be just fine. But that means we've got 21% that are at risk. That's at twice the rate that we would see in the normal population, which means that it's, it's far too high and they are at risk for a range of, um, both internal and external problems, ranging from depression, anxiety, stress, difficulties in their own romantic attachments, difficulties in their attachment to one or both parents.

We can see, uh, their, um, academic performance suffer. We can see general social adjustments suffer. Um. And that trajectory can last well into adulthood and then down into the next generation. Now, I don't know any parent who wants to plan out that trajectory for their children. But then when we look at what happens when families separate, generally the thing that is known about is like, well, phone a lawyer, um, protect your assets, uh, you know, make sure that you get some agreements in place because that's what's been the standard narrative and, and worse, the standard narrative that we see in our movies, in our sitcoms, in our stories.

A, a stories of estrangement where one parent is completely uninvolved or, um, there's goodies and baddies, heroes and villains, but. But in reality, we've just got people. We've got people who were in a relationship that was no longer serving the needs of both of them, and unhealthy relationships should have a pathway.

To end in a healthy way. Now, if we look at the outcomes that people take, because there are people who of course don't want to, I, I don't know about you, Jody. I don't have tens of thousands of dollars sitting in my bank account just in case I have to go to court one day. So there, there are plenty of people who don't want to go down an adversarial process and 70% of families do try, or, or parents do try and come to a, a kitchen table arrangement when they separate.

That makes a lot of sense from avoiding legal fees and trying to be amicable. But we're looking at people who have just come out of a really, really tricky time who are full of hurt, um, sometimes anger, betrayal, pain, and there have been. Often, often communication difficulties that have led to the relationship.

Yes. Needing to end in the first place. So when we have two people sit down with that history around a kitchen table to try and figure out what a fair agreement is, when it's their first separation and we're talking about their most precious cargo, their children, it's. It's a ridiculous expectation that somehow they might be able to do that on their own and do that well.

Mm-hmm. What they need at that point is someone to step in, to be able to guide them, work with them together. Now the pathways that people know about, as I said, is about going to a lawyer or maybe going to a mediator. But what isn't part of the mainstream yet is a process that has been around since the 1990s, which is a collaborative process, and it is a collaborative process.

I really think. All Australian families who are in transition need to know about. So in a collaborative process, rather than having a, a, a magistrate, a mediator, someone to come in and adjudicate between two warring parties, to try and help them come to some kind of negotiated agreement and, and hope that they both comply with it and they don't have to lodge contraventions against each other.

Instead of that, you start with somebody like myself, a coach, and the role of the coach is to. Guide the two parents, not in what agreement they want to reach, but in what skills do they need? To have a healthy co-parenting dynamic, what skills do they need to, uh, be able to be centered around their values, about who they deeply care to be for themselves and for their children?

So a coach helps them with the tricky process of the emotions and the thoughts and figuring out what the best interests are for the kids. If you have a developmental. But like myself in that process, it means we can also give some really clear guidance about what is actually going to serve the children well as they grow up in one family across two homes.

And then when we bring in other people like family lawyers or uh, an accountant or a financial advisor to help with a financial separation, we bring them into wrap around the family and all of the professionals involved. Sit around, uh, literally a, a around, around a table together to brainstorm and collaborate on a solution for the entire family across two homes for what a parenting agreement's going to look like for what a financial separation is going to look like without any adversarial process ever stepping in.

Mm-hmm. Now, anytime I speak about it, you can hear I'm a bit passionate.

Dr. Jodi Richardson: Please continue.

Tiffany Rochester: It's a model that I'm completely in love with because it is such a kinder, more nurturing answer to families in crisis

Dr. Jodi Richardson: and it, it's what people need because as you said at the very beginning that we, we would be, and I'm not in this situation.

It's interesting because when I was coming to talk to you today, I was thinking about. The experiences of other people that I know because, um, not I'm, I'm, you know, married to Peter and we, we parent together in under the one roof. But I, I guess, you know, we've, you know, we, we've had kind of conversations come up.

Whereby, uh, he'll sort of say jokingly, um, you can have the kids and I'll have the dog, or, you know, just silly sort of things. Nothing serious. And I, I don't mean to make light of it at all, but I guess in my mind, I've always thought, look, I, I don't ever picture it happening that something went wrong, that we would be able to work it out ourselves, because the idea of going through lawyers just sounds so horrendous, but as you so eloquently pointed out.

You, you are already fragile. Communication has likely already broken down and there you are across the kitchen table looking to come together to try to come up with, uh, a fair arrangement. And, and it, it's, it's so much beyond that. It's not just kind of splitting assets and working out who's having the kids, as you were saying about the, the skills and coping because it's such a.

Difficult time of life and people break up over all sorts of circumstances and I'm sure the circumstances can dictate kind of how different parties feel at different times as well. And so I do appreciate that we've got this opportunity today to learn that there is a collaborative approach, there is approach that's different to mediation and the legal straight down kind of through, through to lawyers and I recall.

Reading something you wrote where you said that the DIY approach, which is the kitchen table approach that you, you've just mentioned, is a akin to trying to do your own appendectomy. I love that metaphor because I mean, who would try that? Who would even contemplate that? You wouldn't even contemplate it yet.

70% of families are going in that direction. Do you think families are choosing to do this because of finances or. I mean, it's probably, it might not be sort of an all or nothing, but, or, or is it because they sort of feel as though they, they're in a position to amicably kind of come to an agreement about where to next or, you know, there's likely other, uh, reasons that are kind of folded into this as well.

Tiffany Rochester: Yeah, look there. There are definitely multiple layers. I think one of, one of the reasons is that people just don't know that there is any alternative other than going to a lawyer and, and I can really understand resistance in going to a lawyer if you think that's going to send things down an adversarial pathway.

Of course, speaking with Roy very early on can sometimes actually really help put some good safeguards in place just. Stop things going, um, down an adversarial pathway. Uh, but I think one of them is, that's the only people know, also people put such, um, unrealistic, highly critical expectations on themselves.

So something that I'll often hear from parents is we shouldn't have to, like, we shouldn't, we shouldn't have to speak to somebody else about this. We should just be able to figure this out. Um, and I can understand it from the perspective of, quite frankly, I don't want anybody telling me. How I should divvy up the time with my children or how I should parent them.

Um, uh, I, I'm quite capable of doing that. And, and so is the, um, is, is my children's father. We are great parents and, and I would agree with all of those parents that they don't need somebody else telling them. What to do, but the nuances of the, of the how is, is a, is a whole different conversation. So yes, the, the appendectomy example there I think is, um, I, I, I knew when my kid, uh.

Well, actually I didn't even know if it was appendicitis. I knew my kid was really, really unwell and I, I took him to the doctor 'cause I see that, could see that he was in crippling pain. And, and then it became very clear it was his appendix and that needed to be removed. I could see what needed to happen, but that didn't mean that I had the skills to give them anesthetic.

So parents might be able to see what needs to happen, but the stepping it through does need some assistance and guidance and, and one of the things that I often see. For parents in these early stages. So I'm so passionate about being able to support parents right from that moment. Separation is that we often have two parents who are desperately, clearly, firmly focused on the best interest of the children.

Mm. They just have vastly different understandings about what that is, and that's not because they're unkind or mean or cruel towards the other parent. It's just that. Their area of specialty has been becoming a dentist or a bookkeeper, um, or a school teacher or any other profession, and raise children.

They're not all developmental experts in, um, how children cope when they're being raised across two homes when, uh, a romantic attachment has finished. So often what I find if we're involved in those early stages is that when I've got two parents who are saying We can't agree on how to share the care of our kids, it's not about what's fair, it's about what's best for the children.

And sometimes it's about saying to one parent. Well, yeah, of course you want 50 50 shared care. Of course you do at a bare minimum, but your child is six months old. Mm-hmm. And a six month old cannot do a 50 50 shared care arrangement yet. So if you want that in place. We need to plan the trajectory to get you there to protect your child's relationship with both of you.

Or it might be, um, uh, parents of a, of a 10-year-old. One of them is saying they cannot possibly be away from this parent for more than two nights, and that's because they really believe that to be true, that it's gonna be detrimental. And so where a developmental expert could talk about the child's capacity to hold faith in that relationship for a broader period of time, and to be able to be.

Um, uh, safely away from the other parent and, and to be able to look at what is the damage to the relationship with the non-primary parent if that connection isn't, um, isn't maintained. So, so often if we have those conversations right at the start when they're just trying to figure things out, we can get two parents who are really good solid agreement.

That they feel both strongly connected to because I can see that it is the best interest of the children, that it is where the children are developmentally ready, um, or what the children are developmentally capable of doing, and that it is protecting their relationship with both parents and both sides of the extended family as they grow up across two homes.

Dr. Jodi Richardson: I especially appreciate the idea for p picturing some people that I'm aware of that have been through this situation and knowing that for a younger child or younger children to potentially need to spend more time depending on, you know, whether they're breastfeeding or, or what, what the age of them is and what their needs are.

But also for the, the non-primary parent to know that whilst here in this moment. This is not in the best interest of the children, but we've got a plan in place. So whilst it might not meet my needs now as that parent, I might not be getting the time I want and so desperately need with my kids. I understand that the plan is in place and we are building towards that over time, and that must just take an enormous amount of stress and, uh.

Animosity out of the, I mean, there's still gonna be stress and, and, and likely animosity, but just kind of like level it down because, you know, when, when there is a plan in place, there's more certainty and the uncertainty of what's to come can be so incredibly stressful and really heightened emotions, can't it?

And so I, I really appreciate you sharing. With us here today that this is just a part of the work that you do. Can you clone yourself, Tiffany? I think that there's not enough of you to go around.

Tiffany Rochester: Uh, look, there, there, there are some of us. And, um, said, I'll make sure you have for the, the show notes, the, uh, website for collaborative professionals, uh, which is an excellent starting point for finding, um, any collaborative coach or collaboratively trained lawyer.

It, it's not just about whether or not we can clone this approach, right When. When I was looking at what works with families and what serves families well, the reality is, um, most of the options have been expensive. So the work that I was doing with the, the high conflict families, we got great results. I like, we all worked really, really hard with them.

We got excellent results, but I had to tell people to budget $7,000. Now for those who, uh, might be listening who have been involved in family court processes, you might be thinking $7,000. That's nothing at all. I've spent 150, $300,000 on a trial, and indeed for the families that I was serving, that was one of the contrasts that, that we would look at is, this is such a tiny amount of money compared to what is on the line for you.

But of course, many families aren't, aren't heading off to trial. Um, thankfully even with a family course system, the way it is there, there's many. Steps where legal professionals are always trying to help people step outta that process and, and find an alternative, uh, dispute resolution. So even so, we've got people who are going from one home to two who are navigating child support.

And in the current context, of course, with the, the cost of in crisis, increasing financial pressure all of the time, $7,000 is still a lot of money and. Too much so often for families to be able to stretch too. So one of the things that I feel really passionate about is accessible services. I, I don't think that money should be a barrier for accessing services.

And if we look at the way our system is set up there, there are no Medicare rebates for family, um, family and couples therapy for, for things to do with separated parents. And then in my work. With these parents, what I noticed is they, they don't need therapy. The time for therapy HA has passed. Um, they may need their own individual therapy for the processing of the emotions, what have they, but what they need is coaching.ki kick them to the curb kind of mentality that we might see in memes.

To instead build a strong, powerful community of co-parents who are working hard to do the best they can with what they've got, whether or not their co-parent is coming along for the ride. And so out of that, I developed our co-parenting intensive reset, which is a hybrid model of both, uh, live group coaching calls and online, uh, videos.

A lot of me, Jody, like they get a lot of me, um, and. Um, and, and it allows, allows us to deliver that level of intensity for 6% to 7% Right. Of the original cost. Gosh, that's, so it's, it's pretty much like the, the cost of one session with a lawyer

Dr. Jodi Richardson: that I'm glad you've been able to kind of give us that indication because I guess when people think of separation and divorce, they just think.

So much cost, exactly as you were just saying, and, and when, when you were sort of saying it can escalate to sort of 150, 200, $300,000, that's just so incomprehensible for what that does to the rest of the life for that, that part of the family and, and the impact that that has on the stress of the Yeah.

Just, just doesn't need to be that way. And it, and that approach, despite the fact that it costs more actually is harmful. It's really harmful.

Tiffany Rochester: Or outcomes. Mm-hmm. And currently it takes up to, up to four years for a matter to be resolved through the family court. That's a quarter of a child's life. And, and of course nobody has that kind of money sitting around to spend on trial.

So, so that money's coming out of, um, grandparents', superannuation. The, the, the cost. The cost to the broader society. Is enormous. And, uh, the, the, the stress, the, the presenteeism that will happen for the parents who are trying to turn up to work during that awful process, the amount of hours that they lose in not being able to be in connection with their children, their parents, uh, their friends, and their loved ones, because they are so caught up in the stress of writing and responding to affidavits and legal letters.

It's. It is completely the wrong solution for families in transition.

Dr. Jodi Richardson: And it's wonderful that you're creating a community of like-minded people, so, uh, people feel supported, not just by you, but by each other.

Tiffany Rochester: I've gotta tell you, like we talked before about whether or not this was hard work, catching up with my community of co-parents is the highlight in my diary.

They are the most beautiful humans. Uh, and I, I just. I, I cannot speak enough for, for how gorgeous they are, how hard they work for their children, and how much support they provide to each other. So, uh, yes, they do have the, the opportunities to, to meet and, and talk with each other online, um, and inside, uh, um, uh, a Facebook group as well.

So there's our ongoing connection. We are aware, obviously there, there are times when, um, when I'm working with both co-parents in, in a coaching package, you know, that might be to help them step through that collaborative process that we spoke about earlier, or it might be to work just directly just themselves and myself to get to a, um, a parenting agreement or perhaps some standard operating procedures for what co-parenting is going to look like.

However, so often we have. Somebody who really wants to co-parent collaboratively and they don't know how to get their co-parent to the table, or they, they don't know how to get the other person to be more attuned or to be more interested or, or whatever it it is, uh, with the way that we run our co-parenting intensive reset, you don't need to wait for your co-parent to be interested.

You don't need to wait for them to come on board that there is there, there is so much that you can do for taking care of yourself and taking care of your kids. And shaping a healthier relationship with your co-parent that doesn't need them to actually ever turn up to the same CAU or program as you.

And so within those communities, we never have, uh, two halves of a dynamic in the same community. Yes. So everything that we do, uh, it, it was a bit of a difficult part of our business model, Jody, I'm not gonna lie. Uh, but, but we had, everything gets duplicated. So every time we run something, we run two.

Separate communities so that we can have both parents participate at the same time, but they have a context of safety for support and resourcing with other co-parents and time with me that is completely separate from the, the person that they're co-parenting with.

Dr. Jodi Richardson: Hmm. Very important. And the point that you made about a one half of the co-parenting kind of duo can come along and come on board without the other.

I mean, it's obviously ideal if both are on the same page with this approach, but what about for. A person who's in a relationship that's broken down and there is so much venom and animosity between them that they can't be in the same kind of building as one another, let alone the same room, or, or, yeah.

You know, trying to, uh, approach things from a, a sort of a more civilized kind of manner. What would you say to someone who's listening who is in that situation or kind of feels like at a complete loss because they just. Just dunno where to turn it. It does, there need to be any communication at all between, I mean, I suppose there has to be at points, especially with handover of children and the like, but what would you say to someone who's just going, I don't even want to like ever think about my partner again.

Is this for me? Is this something that, that I can take advantage of?

Tiffany Rochester: Yes. Now, I'm not sure on, on the language warning for your podcast, Jody. I would say you do not have to give two shits about your co-parent to be able to collaborate well with them. Yeah. Um. And if you need to edit that out, you don't need toker, a toss about your co-parent.

Um, be because this isn't about your co-parent. It's not. It's about you. It's about how many hours sleep you are losing. It's about how anxious you are. It's about, um, how much time you are caught up in angst and panic, how much money you are spending, and it's about your relationship with your kids. That is all too precious to wait for your co-parent to have an epiphany and wake up and decide that they wanna be a better person.

Right. Don't, don't put that power in their hands. If you have a really tricky co-parent, if you have somebody that you have, um, in your mind, you feel they're a narcissist, they may not be. Uh, uh, I, I hear people, um, you know, labeled that way far more than I actually meet them. But, uh, if you have someone that, that you find incredibly difficult that, um, you don't know how to disarm them, that you don't know how to, um, have anything to do with them, then oh my gosh.

Mm-hmm. You really need some resources and help for you because. They are still the child's other parent. And even if, uh, there are, there are risk issues where, um, where somebody else is determined that, that there are some protections that need to be in place with that other parent, you still need to know what do you, what do you do with your children?

How do you teach them about what that means about their DNA? How do you teach them about what it means about their connection to their wider family? It's not about your co-parent. It is about you and actually giving yourself the life that you deserve. After unhealthy relationship has ended what we see.

Though is things changed by default? I got the most beautiful email, uh, just last week from a, a client who gave me permission to be able to share this. And, uh, they shared some of the, some of the things that have changed with their co-parent. But the part that I loved was, um, was they shared that they've asked their co-parent to do our next reset because they saw the value in it for them and they saw, uh, the skills that they learned in how to have those types of conversations.

With their co-parent so that they could speak in a way that made it easier for their co-parent to hear them, that they knew how to approach things to keep their co-parents defenses down. That brings about change. So we have had, within our, our graduates, for people who have never had their co-parent step anywhere near our program, we've had parents return into relationship with estranged children.

We've had parents, um, be able to start attending events. Alongside their co-parent and their children, or finding an agreement about what primary school or high school for their children to go to, where previously they thought that that was headed toward mediation, coming to, um, uh, arrangements about what boundaries they wanna put in place with mobile phones or um, extracurricular activities.

The way that they're approaching things from their side, even though they might have not ever thought there was anything they needed to change the way that they have gone about things. Their co-parent has improved as a byproduct.

Dr. Jodi Richardson: As a byproduct. It reminds me very much of the idea that when a parent of a highly anxious child, the the child or the teen, is like, no way am I going along to therapy.

I'm not gonna see anyone. I don't wanna talk about it, but the parent goes along, the parent gets some help. The parents learn some skills and ideas and insights into how to approach it. It. It make, it can make quite a significant difference to the experience of the child when the parent, and, and so it's, it's.

Really important that we've been able to highlight that and that, oh, just I was, um, just a big smile came across my face when you started talking about some of those examples because it's just so painful when, you know, like you were saying about attending an event, you know, something like a graduation or a performance or, or the color run at primary school, even if it's something that's kind of not.

Not, you know, and they're all important kids', faces absolutely light up when you know, unless they get much older. And then they're like, don't you come near the school please. But tho those, they're, they're all really important. And you know, at the end of the day, two people once loved and cared for one another and have had children.

And so with the right help, the right support, the right skills, and, and being wrapped around by all of the professionals who can support them, then the outcomes for everybody are improved dramatically. And I wonder what it means for people. And I, I know of a, a couple that went through the family court system and in fact, um, the, the mother was, uh, she was not really in a state to be a fit parent.

And the father is. And so that was really tricky because the default was, uh, the children are with mom. And that was a very, very difficult situation. And so for families who find themselves kind of already on this road with the legal, uh, fraternity involved or in a mediation type program, and they kind of feel like, oh, I've kind of, you know.

I'm already on this track. What are the options if they, they're learning about this collaborative approach and feeling like, oh, my shoulders have dropped from my ears to my shoulders back where they should be. I didn't think that through. Um. And feeling like, oh my goodness, there's another way. Can you get off the road you're already on?

How does that work?

Tiffany Rochester: Yes, you can. Um, there are two ways that you can get off. One is, uh, there are two ways you can get off the road and one is easy and, and one is more complex. So. The easy way is to decide that you are going to be non-adversarial and that you are going to seek to be collaborative. So what that might look like is jumping inside, um, our community, um, so that you're well resourced, doing our intensive research so that you've got the skillset and the toolkit and what that will change is.

What, how you are responding to, um, to the affidavits, how you are returning up to those proceedings, uh, the, the arguments that you choose to let go, the arguments that you choose to make. So just by changing your approach and making sure that you are resourced with a different framework will change the outcomes if you are stuck in that process.

That's the easiest way out, the harder way out is that yes, at any point, as I mentioned, people are always looking for a way to avert trial. And in fact, it's one of the things that I, that I tell psychologists when they're, um, subpoenaed is, is they need to be aware that only, um, 8% of, um, of psychs who are called to trial ever actually give evidence.

So you're probably not going to court. The reason for that is how, how hard lawyers, magistrates, all of the people are working to not. Not take families down that pathway whilst the system is broken, the professionals within it are, are not. I think that's so important to, um, to, to have that message out there.

At any point, people can all agree that they would like to step into a collaborative process instead. The part that makes that difficult is that for a collaborative process to work, you have to have every professional that's involved be collaboratively trained. Now, for, um, someone like myself or yourself, Jody, it is not a big stretch for us.

Um, if, if you went to collaborative practice training, you would take to it like a duck to water. It is completely in our native language. But for lawyers, it is a massive gear shift, and I love speaking to lawyers as they, as they make their way through the training. And, and the, the lawyers that I, I, I have, uh, quite a, quite a large group of family lawyers that I meet with regularly.

They're the most beautiful, passionate people who are completely on this same pathway for collaborative, um, process that supports and nurtures families and, and hearing them talk about what they didn't get exposed to in their. Base level training at uni compared to what they've learned now in the collaborative process is enormous.

So for the family that is stuck in a trial process, sometimes that might mean. Both changing lawyers, um, or finding a coach that's willing to take them on. Um, my, my, uh, standard myself is I only work with hell yeses. I have to be a absolute hell yes, that I believe I can help and serve the people that are asking for my help.

And they have to be a hell yes. So they really believe that I'm the right fit for them, uh, because I'm not interested in working with people who don't want to work with me, that's not satisfying for me and doesn't get them great outcomes. But it's really easy to know if, if I will be a hell yes for you.

I just wanna know that you want out of adversarial process and you want in for collaboration and to get there, you're willing to look at your own behaviors. So if that describes you, then you're a really good fit for starting to find your way out into a collaboration. It is a harder process. But it's definitely doable and I would say so worth it.

Um, 'cause again, if you were working with a really tricky co-parent, if you do have somebody who you have queries about whether or not they would meet some kind of personality disorder, um, diagnosis, don't diagnose, then yourselves, uh, you know, doesn't help us anyway. But, but if you've got a co-parent that is that kind of tricky person.

It is the collaborative process where the person who is responsible for managing all the professionals in the room is mental health trained rather than legal trained. That is your process for safety. That is your process for your best outcomes because we are not putting people in a position where they're gonna be under fight flight.

And have all of their defenses up, which will happen every time that you put a vulnerable person into an adversarial experience, such as a, a lawyer assisted mediation, or a courtroom. So it is a hard process if you're already there to step out of it, but well worth it because you will still get better outcomes.

Dr. Jodi Richardson: better outcomes and part immediately part of a community of people who understand, who are nurturing and, and that that alone to begin with would just relieve, you know, a significant amount of stress and, and bring with it a whole lot more hope and. Both of those are very important under these circumstances.

I want to change tack a little because when I think about the mental health of children in the families, families like the ones we've been discussing, where the romantic relationship has ended and there's separation. What are some of the things that parents are in that situation or perhaps. Believe that they're approaching that situation can do to help protect, was the word I was going to use, protect the mental health of kids.

And, and, and of course, you know, we know that kids can, can be quite resilient. How would you encourage parents who are thinking, look, we're on the road to this sort of separation or in the middle of it. What can they do to kind of support the kids through it? Do they, um, I'm thinking of things like, well, at what point do you kind of share the information and, and how?

How, depending on the age of the children, how much do you share about kind of what's going on behind the scenes? Because older kids are gonna be really curious. They're gonna have really strong opinions, no doubt. And younger kids will probably be very confused. So just to, before we, we finish up, I wondered if you could share some insights into how parents can support their kids with whatever you think might be pertinent right now.

Tiffany Rochester: Yeah, absolutely. So I would say if. Where, where parents are in a, in a situation where they know that the relationship has ended and it's, it's time to start separating. One of the triggers that can often be pushed for them is around, this wasn't, this wasn't what I wanted for my kids. Um, I wanted them to grow up in a, um, you know, two parent, one home family.

And so we sit can see a lot of that grief around, um, around actually doing the separation and questions around whether or not to delay. Now from an attachment perspective, the most important thing that a baby can do for its survival is learn how to read all of the tiny micro expressions of mum, particularly, um, and, and the other parent.

And, um, so the children are really aware of what is happening in the home and no matter how much you're trying to shield them. They can read you better than anybody else. So if a decision has been made to separate, my advice is to decide to separate very well as quickly as you can, and that then from the perspective of sharing information with the children, once you know that it is going to happen.Make sense of that in their world. Um, in terms of, in terms of how much to tell them. A romantic relationship ending is adult business and it's private, and children don't need to know the ins and outs of that. Mm-hmm. So even with a curious teenager, it is quiet.

Okay. To be able to say the reason our relationship has ended is private to us, the part that matters is we are both dedicated to being great parents to the two of you. As we move through this transition that none of us planned for none of us, none of us put on our vision board. Of course it is a much broader conversation than that.

Of course.

Dr. Jodi Richardson: Yes. What you've shared, I really, I know listeners will appreciate because the, these are some of the initial questions and, and I guess some of the, sometimes the delay and, and I, I really am, uh, making predictions here that sometimes the, the delay in perhaps ending the relationship is like these questions about how are we gonna handle this?

How are we gonna tell the kids and, and supported through, uh, the. You know, with someone like yourself or another, uh, collaborative coach would, you know, the sooner the better, getting that support. So as these all of these situations unfold, you get good advice, sound, uh, advice and support as well, because it's one thing to know what to do, it's another thing to be, you know, able to, um, deliver news like that and then come back to a community that's really supportive and understands what you're going through.

My last question. Is with respect to when children are laying the blame on the parent that decides to leave the relationship, because I, I know that sometimes it's one person's choice. It's not mutual. I, I dunno the percentages. I'm wondering if you perhaps do, but, uh, I, I know that that can be some, some of the fallout with these situations whereby, um.

Hypothetically, mom leaves dad because mom is, uh, very, very unhappy in the relationship, and kids are kind of like, well, you made this happen and not too happy with mom. What do you, what do you see along those lines and, and how would you support a parent who's in that situation? Who knows that she's really doing what's best for the family?

But the kids don't necessarily see it that way.

Tiffany Rochester: Yeah. Um, and, and you're right. You know, there's so many truisms are in pop songs when a heartbreak, it don't break even. Yeah. It's

Dr. Jodi Richardson: so true.

Tiffany Rochester: And I think when we've got that dynamic with the kids, we've already had the kids exposed to too much adult content. So if moms decided to leave and the children are blaming mom for going, then either mom or dad, um, or mom and mom, depending on the dynamic has has shared.

Too much information about the circumstances under which the relationship is ending. Now, that is really hard. I'm thinking about any parent who's sitting there, who's thinking, I was one who was blindsided. I was the one who was devastated. Like I, I was on team staying together. How am I not supposed to say they left and I didn't choose this?

Yeah. It is freaking hard, like that is really difficult. Mm. And yet we need to look at protecting the children's healthy relationship with both parents. And whilst that may be exactly the space that you are feeling when somebody's left, there's been a relationship that wasn't healthy for some time. Yeah.

And whether or not both people could see it and whether or not the person who's left didn't know how to make that clear, or whether the person who didn't want to leave, uh, didn't pick up on the, the signals that people, who knows how that happened. Even when the decision has been led by one person, the relationship was not healthy, and the job of both parents is to hold the line for the kids to go.

The reason that this has ended is not important to you. What's important is how much we love you. Mm-hmm. And then the other part is to make all, so I really love the circle of security stuff for this, Jody, about being, being that loving, wise, kind, safe container. For the children to be able to have all of their emotions that to not rush them to not feel we have to distract them.

Uh, we don't need to jolly it up. We don't need to make it really exciting that they're gonna have two bedrooms or really um, fabulous. That there's going to be two lots of Christmas presents or, or, or all the other things that, that parents sometimes do because they so desperately don't want their children to hurt.

Yeah, of course we don't want our children to hurt, but my goodness me, they have to have those feelings, so it is okay. To just hold the space while your children rage to be safe enough for them to be angry at you. Mm, to be safe enough for them to be angry whilst you won't give them all the answers that they want, because.

It's developmentally not sensitive to them. And as parents, we have to make those decisions all the time to hold the line around something that is hard for our kids because we can see that it is not good for them, even though they can't see it for themselves. I had to tell my son the other week that he couldn't know couple, two months ago now it doesn't matter, but that he couldn't catch the bus down to Albany with his friend and camping for a week.

Um, that was a line I had to hold. Yes, because I, because I can see. That he's not ready for that, but he can't see that right now. Yes. It's just our stocks and parenting applied to a really difficult, really painful, really hard situation.

Dr. Jodi Richardson: Mm. And creating that space and being there so that children are able to experience what they're going through, but they're not alone when going through it.

We don't have to fix it as much as we might want to. No matter what the situation is as a parent, it's, it's such a strong message. And goodness, we, when we were corresponding via email, uh, you, you finished one of your emails by saying we could talk all day. And I knew we could, but we might have to leave it there.

But, um, yeah. Listeners will no doubt have other questions I'd love for me to ask you at another time. Tiff, thank you for, thank you so much for sharing today. It's, it's so evident how passionate you are about the work that you're doing and, and the, the outcomes that stem from this work that you and other colleagues, uh, are doing to make such a profound difference to families going through such hard times.

So I'm very grateful for your time and I would just love and no doubt listeners are, uh, really keen to find out. How they can learn more about you and your work and how they can work with you, or maybe send a link to a partner. Um, where, where can people find you?

Tiffany Rochester: Uh, yes, absolutely. So I, I'll tell you all of those in a moment.

I do just wanna say thank you so much for having me as your guest, Jody, and, and for this opportunity to share particularly about those alternative options for parents. I, I really, really appreciate being able to have this chance to let people know that there are alternatives. Um, in terms of finding me, uh, I try and make that as easy as possible.

So, uh, our website is Co-parenting companion au. You can find me on, uh, Facebook, Instagram, um, and LinkedIn. It's just at Co-Parenting Companion. If you Google my name, you'll find me, which is Tiffany Rochester. And, uh, I'm a big fan of people being able to really, as I said, I only work with hell yeses. So for people to be able to really.

Check me out. Check out the way that, uh, we work and think before they come anywhere near making a decision about whether I'm the right fit for them. So, uh, one of the things that I would recommend for people is to check out our free course. It's six Steps to reduce co-parenting stress. It takes about 15 minutes.

It's a free course, and every one of those six steps is a free to implement strategy for just. Really taking the stress and, uh, turmoil and hard work out of, uh, communicating with a co-parent. It's a lovely, easy touchstone. And at the moment we have a, a very special webinar, uh, a free webinar coming up that is only available to people who are participating in that mini course.

And that is, um, our breaking free from broken Systems to our webinar on how to get to collaborative communication and collaborative agreements without mediation and lawyers. Uh, so, uh, if there's anything here that sparked interest, now is a really good time to check out some of our resources.

Dr. Jodi Richardson: Oh, brilliant.

Oh, I love that you give people an opportunity because it's gotta be the right fit, doesn't it? But no doubt people have really come to know and love you just in the time we've been talking, because I know if every, every, anything ever sort of goes awry from my end, um, you would be the first person that I would be reaching out to.

And, and it's really nice. I feel, you know, so thankful to be in a position to be able to bring the work that you are doing to, uh, this. You know, national and global community of listeners. If somebody's overseas, they're okay to join in. Yes. Yes. Um, my last question is co-parenting companion. Is it? PAR or is it CO hyphen?

P-A-R-E-N-T-I-N-G

Tiffany Rochester: Both will get you there, but, but C-O-P-A-R. Okay. Yeah.

Dr. Jodi Richardson: I just wanted to double check, but not, you know, people will, people will find you. But, um, TIFF, thanks again. Thanks again for your time for the. For the work that you do. Uh, you're changing lives and you are changing. You are absolutely changing the trajectory of lives, not only for the adults, but for the kids and, and for generations to come because we, we do know, as you said at the very start, that it can, it can have a ripple effect way beyond the people that are involved here and now.

So very, very grateful for your time.

Tiffany Rochester: Thank you so much for having me on. Jody, it's been really lovely to talk to you. I do hope that you and Peter never need me, but if that ever did happen, definitely got you back and got his too. Oh,

Dr. Jodi Richardson: thank you. Thank you so much. And thank you listeners. I've just so enjoyed being able to.

Bring Tiffany's work to you today, and I really do ask that if, if this is something that you need to go and have a look at her website to check out the free course or to share this episode with someone who you think might really benefit from it, because, uh, I think everybody can. There is a, there is a different way to, to what so many believe is the only way.

To move through what can be of an incredibly difficult stage in life for some. And so yeah, I really hope you found this helpful and that you can share it with others who will too. Thank you for being with me and I'll be back with you again next week. Okay, bye.

Thank you so much for joining me for this week's episode. If you enjoyed it, please subscribe and leave a review to keep the conversation going. I'd love you to join me over on Instagram. You'll find me at Dr. Jody Rich. Also, if you'd like a copy of my free five day mini email course, calm Your Anxious Brain, then jump over to my website, drjodyrichardson.com and you can sign up down the bottom.

I've really enjoyed having your company. Thanks so much. See you next time.