You Don’t Have to Wait for Your Co-Parent to Change

Bel Bayliss: So I'm so excited to welcome to the podcast today Tiffany Rochester. Hey, Tiff, welcome. 

Tiffany Rochester: Thanks, Bel. I'm so excited to be here. I've been really looking forward to our conversation. 

Bel Bayliss: Oh, this is one that I know is gonna land really well for both of us, but also for everybody who's tuning in. So let's start with, can you tell us a little bit more about Tiffany?

Tiffany Rochester: Um, so the first thing that comes to mind for me is, um, how much I love karaoke, and how much I think that is the way to, um, you know, true pathway to world peace, is to have people singing together. Um, but outside of that, I'm a mother of two boys, who are now, uh, both taller than me. Um, and I'm a clinical psychologist and co-parenting coach supporting, uh, separated parents to raise kids across two homes to be healthy and resilient.

Bel Bayliss: I love that. I love that. There's, there's so much depth in acknowledging who we are as women, separate from all of the other hats that we can put on, and I love that, you know, your, your values shine through in that. 

Tiffany Rochester: I think you're absolutely right, right? We ask people all the time like, um, you know, like, like what do you do, and um, and the default is, like, what do we do for a living?

How... A- as if that's where all of our value is. And, um, yeah, I think we are, we are full humans with really beautiful and interesting lives. I think it's one of the things out of the, um, in the post-COVID era, um, that we're aware of, is how much work is only a part of what we do. Um. 

Bel Bayliss: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think that, you know, and, and I've had those conversations with other women as well, that things changed when we didn't have to do things a certain way.

That we had that opportunity to, to be more focused, I think So tell me a little bit more about the work you do, because I just think there is such a genuine peace in what you bring to the world. 

Tiffany Rochester: Oh, thank you so much. Um, I love, I love what I get to do. Um, so the background of it is that I've, my entire career I've worked with families in tricky transitions, um, and worked with a systemic lens really looking at how do we support an entire family as it moves through all of the stages of, of childhood and into adulthood.

Because we don't live in isolation. Uh, we, we can't, we can't help children thrive if we are not helping parents thrive. Uh, and so, so I've always worked with that larger lens focus, and during my career that morphed into, uh, working with people who were embroiled in family court conflict. And what I saw there was an enormous amount of trauma that was being inflicted on families that were already in trauma.

And there was, there was so much, uh, missing for these families in terms of the early intervention resourcing and supports around them, and so much was just left to the legal system. And, and the legal system is an important process and, um, and it has a, a, a, a value to families. But it's only part of the solution.

And lawyers are, are really excellent at knowing what legal precedents are and knowing how to structure and win arguments. But what they aren't trained for is how to, uh, build helpful communication pathways, or how to help people recover after relationship ruptures, or what healthy development looks like for children as they grow up, um, having moved from one home across into two.

And what I found in that space is that when you're working as a mandated therapist with people who have been forced by a magistrate to come and see you, that it's really offensive for the clients, like, to be told, "You need to go and do therapy, and you need to go and see this person, and they will report back on outcomes."

It doesn't support families up for, um, really helpful growth and engagement. 

Bel Bayliss: Yeah. And- Doesn't feel collaborative at all. 

Tiffany Rochester: No. No. Collaborative, and let's come back to that word, 'cause that, that word's really important to me, as you know. Um, so yeah, so I looked at how can I serve families earlier in the process?

How can we wrap around them? How can we nurture them? How can we hold them through that transition? Because unhealthy relationships need to be able to end. I just believe they can end in really healthy ways, and that we should wrap around people with compassionate care to help them to do that. 

Bel Bayliss: Yeah. And it's, it's so needed.

I know that in, in the, the clinical work that I do that, I guess, disruption to relationships and the angst and the anger that can show up on both sides can be really all-consuming. 

Tiffany Rochester: Look, it can be, right? Relationships don't, don't often end neatly, and people also don't walk away from them lightly. And so there's often a long history of deep consideration, and reflection, and pain, and hurt, and confusion, and betrayal.

It's a lot to try and then ask yourself, "How do I want to carry myself through this, this next chapter?" And then i- if you're in a situation having to still raise children together, that's even harder again. Um, yeah. Yeah, it's a, it's a lot. It's a lot that parents have to manage in that time of transition.

Bel Bayliss: Yeah. So what are the type of outcomes that you see for the people who go through your processes, as opposed to what we would routinely see with things like mediation and parenting plans all sorted by lawyers who ... I've heard the weirdest things. I don't know if they actually live in the day-to-day world sometimes.

Tiffany Rochester: So, um, so we support families in, in two kind of broadly two different ways. Um, so where we have two parents who want to work together towards an amicable solution, they just need some support to get there, then we'll work with, with both of them, um, on a pathway to get there. And sometimes, and perhaps for the majority of cases, we have one parent who definitely wants to do the best for their kids, and they're not sure quite how to engage the other parent, or the other parent is completely unwilling, uh, at that point in time to be able to come on board.

And so when, when I think about the outcomes that I see, um, obviously they, they are quite different outcomes, uh, depending on which pathway they come through. If they come through the pathway where we're working with them together, the types of things that, um, that I hear from that is, "This has been a really healing process."

Um, I've had people tell me, "I feel far more comfortable sitting with this person now and able to have conversations with them." Um- The, the way that I, I will often work with those people if, if we are working on a parenting plan. A parenting plan is, uh, absolutely a great insurance policy for keeping a relationship healthy, uh, for co-parenting because it, it predicts the problems before they're there, and then it gives people a clear pathway about how they're going to manage those so that at times that they want to look forward to things like, um, uh, you know, birthdays or, uh, school holidays, that they don't have to have the stress of how are we going to get through the situation.

They already have that in advance. So, um, w- often when I'm working on parenting plans with people, I might just work with the two people, but if we're working on the financial and property separation, I'm really great at communication skills. I'm really great at, uh, helping people with emotional management, but numbers is not my business.

That is not where my degree is. And so for those, we bring in, um, a financial expert, an accountant or a financial advisor. And, um, and if we need them, we bring lawyers into the team as well, and we bring that into a collaborative law process. Um, and in that process, what I love is we have a, a full multidisciplinary team that wraps around the family.

So rather than having two sides, um, in adversarial conflict, we have one team working to help the family find solutions that is going to be good for both people. So what I talk to our clients about in that process is we will know that we've found the right agreement when you check in with your body and your body says, "Yes, this feels really good for me.

This feels like this is the best solution that we have for, um, for our family, for the asset pool that we are trying to, um, to make work across two homes." So there's often hugs at the end of that process, and handshakes and, and, and smiles. And it's not that, it- it's not that it's a miracle and there's no hurt anymore or, or, or what have you.

It's just there's been a, a process to facilitate calm conversation and for people to connect back in with- Who they care to be and how they want to act towards this person who was deeply significant to them for quite some time. Um, so that is a pure and utter privilege to witness that. 

Bel Bayliss: Yeah. And what I appreciate about your approach is that bringing in a team, I think that professions, we seem to like to silo ourselves.

Like, this is me and this is where I sit. And it doesn't become so collaborative. Like, my psychology training was a couple of decades ago, and it was all about collaboration and working alongside others. And I feel like in some ways professionals, whether it be psychologists or lawyers, you know, financial planners, they like to silo.

Like, this is my bit. So the idea of coming in together with a team who are understanding all of it, or at least trying to understand all of the parts so that their part can contribute, that just sounds gorgeous. 

Tiffany Rochester: I absolutely love it, and it's, it's been one of the surprises in my career. I, I think when, uh, likewise, when I went through our training and, and in my early years, um, I certainly thought I'd be working in multidisciplinary teams, but I thought they'd be with speech therapists and occupational therapists and other allied health.

And I didn't know I was going to be spending so much time hanging out with lawyers and finance people. But yes, we bring that combination of unique skill sets brings so much richness to the, to the family. I, I've watched processes where the amount of tax that the financial advisor's been able to save the family in s- in, um, working out how to, um, work the asset pool, has saved them more money than the cost of the entire process.

Uh, I, I couldn't do that. Um, I, I can't, as I said, I can't, I can't tell them what to do with money. And then when I look at historically, when I was first working with families in the family court system, the only way that my opinion as a, as a psychologist, as, as an expert in, in human development could be brought into the space is if I was being cross-examined on the witness stand, and then you've already got everybody in an elevated system.

It's, whereas this way I get to sit at the table and be a part of the conversation, guiding the family- Yeah ... the whole way through. 

Bel Bayliss: Yeah. And I imagine that cross-examination space is more about defense than advocacy. 

Tiffany Rochester: Look, it, I, I would say I've had a whole range of experiences I understand. A whole, a whole range.

Um, we were talking earlier about, about the two different pathways, but I just wanted to, to come back to the g- the group where, uh, of parents where they don't have the co-parent of their dreams, that they are trying to work things through. Mm. And, um, and we often have people feeling at the start when they first contact me, like there is no space for change.

Um, there is no chance for things to be different because the other person won't step into the learning, won't step into- Mm-hmm ... um, trying a new way of doing things. Um, and one of the things that I often think about is that even if the other person is responsible for 90% of what is difficult and awful and horrible, if you can change 10%, you're still 10% better off.

And sometimes when you change that 10%, it turns out there's a whole heap that changes on the other side. And so, uh, we have seen, um, where only one parent has engaged with us for resourcing and support, that the changes that they have made have meant that the other parent has started responding to them differently, has been able to respond to them more favorably.

And we, we've had them go from not being able to get through a mediation appointment to being able to work on a parenting agreement completely outside of an adversarial process. Uh, so we've seen huge improvements there, even when only one's doing the work. And we have some where no matter, no matter what they do, they're not going to effect much change in their co-parent, and they are still stuck having to raise children with that person.

And for those people, what we find is, uh, we can create far more breathing room in their life, boundaries that don't get crossed, and space where, um, you know, they're not constantly caught up in the emotional energy and pain of what is happening with the person on the other side, so they still actually get to enjoy the next chapter as they move on to, um, you know, a more, more thriving, healthier life.

And looking at how also they can protect and shield their children as they grow up with a co-parent who's doing the work, and one who perhaps never will. 

Bel Bayliss: Yeah. Yeah. So what I'm hearing is that from your initial training, you thought you'd be in one place, and where you've landed, and beautifully and comfortably, is very different to the original plan.

So I'm wondering as a business, how has that evolved for you and, and what's it look like? 

Tiffany Rochester: I feel that's such a, a great question because one of the things that, um, that I often reflect on, and I know, Bel, you will have heard me say this many times, is I never intended to run my own business. Um No, no one could have been more surprised than me.

Um, and, and I think it's, um- There is this, uh, like, like if I look at the trajectory that we go through across our lifespan, uh, I get really excited about the energy that is there for young people. And I remember when we were young people, I still have memory that goes back that far and- ... um, you know, in, in year 12, um, I coordinated a, a school strike across all of the, um, south west region, um, because, uh, I, I wanted, um, our students to stand in support of the conditions the teachers were facing in that time.

Um, and, and I see that same advocacy, um, and protest movement in my children now, um, in our current political climate. And, and that has always been what young people are, are really good at, is, is protesting and saying- Mm ... "Please make the world a better place." And then as we go through our lives, we reach this, this midlife point where we actually have the experience and the credibility and the knowledge and the wisdom to open the doors that need to be opened, and to speak in spaces where we need to be heard.

And, um, what happened for me is I looked at the work that I wanted to do to serve these families, and there wasn't a workplace that I could walk into that was doing that the way that I felt it needed to be done. Um, and so it was worth starting a business for so that I could do this wholeheartedly and well.

But I couldn't have done it in my 30s, definitely not in my 20s. Uh, so I think it's one of the, one of the strengths that comes with moving into this stage of life. 

Bel Bayliss: Yeah, yeah. To be able to lean into what we know about ourselves and about the world, and how we can function effectively, um, in that sort of manner, I think is what you're leaning into 

Tiffany Rochester: there.

Yeah, very much so. And, and I was reflecting on this, um, uh, well, uh, you know, I, I reflect on this a lot when I'm thinking about the, the families that I serve. And, um, one of the ways that that shows up for me is, um, the family court space has understood that for too long children's voices have not been heard, and that for too long decisions have been made about them rather than w- with them and, and in consideration of their experience.

And because they are not experts in child development, and because they want to do good in the world, we've seen this emergence of, um, child inclusive mediation. And m- my opinion in this space is a little controversial, but that's one of the reasons I started my own business, is so that I could, um, you know, speak to the things that need to be spoken to.

And so what we have in child inclusive mediation is a beautiful concept, like this really gorgeous idea of what if the children can speak directly? What if, what if the children can actually be heard by their parents? And it sounds lovely at surface level. But as a psychologist who has worked with many of those children when they have been, uh, mandated to see me through a family court process, I can tell you that the children don't want to be heard by a range of psychologists, and they don't want to be heard by a range of, uh, legal team.

They just want their parents. They just want their parents to listen to them. And so then when I look at the amount of, the amount of time that... You can't ask lawyers to do it. The amount of time we need to put i- i- into lawyers to be able to have them have those conversations sensitively with children who have been, um, you know, experiencing trauma and, and, and disruption in their attachment is, is, is enormous.

And, and again, speaks to why we would use a multidisciplinary team. We need lawyers to do their excellent lawyering and advocacy for their clients, not to be pseudo therapists. And then you and I would know that when we're working with people who have, you know, a, a disruption in their primary attachments, um, who are experiencing trauma related to that, the amount of safety we need to create in that therapeutic relationship before they can start to tell us things, especially if that's going to go to the people that they love most and don't, just we don't want to hurt, that's, that's enormous.

But what we can do with the psychology skills that we have in our lane of expertise is we can help parents with perspective taking. We can help parents to step into the shoes of their children, and for some, that's, that's, that's too hard. We can help them take perspective of themselves as little people.

Um, we can... Th- thankfully, there's many children who have grown up through, uh, I mean, not thankfully they've grown up through acrimonious divorce, but they, they, they have grown up through acrimonious divorce. They're choosing to use their protest voices to speak out, to say, "These are the things that we need to do differently."

And they've produced beautiful YouTube clips that we can also share with families to help them hear the voice of the child without it having to be the literal voice of their literal child. And so again, when I look at, um, the energy that we can bring in this time of our lives with our expertise is being able to say, "Yes, the voice of the child is incredibly important.

The child must be heard, and their consideration must be, um," oh, sorry, "m- must be taken into consideration." That doesn't mean that experts need to literally speak to the child. But if we can help the parents to create the safety space to be able to hear and notice their children's behaviors, my gosh, what we can do there then.

And then what we won't have, we won't have children who seek us out as a psychologist in, uh, when they reach their adulthood to say, "I saw you when I was small. Could you please tell me what the hell was that all about?"

Bel Bayliss: Yeah. And, and that's, that's really curious. I like, I like that concept that they've, they've come around and sort of asked the questions. Uh, if... And it's curious 'cause I reflect on my early career in psychology was in schools. Um, sorry. I'll get rid of that. Um So early I was in schools and definitely particularly high school there was that real strong sense of nothing about me without me.

Tiffany Rochester: Yes. 

Bel Bayliss: And then we think of a system that does almost the opposite in that traditional sense, that it's all about the child, but not necessarily with the child. And when we sat with families that were in the process of ending as their family looked and, and changing through divorce or separation, the behaviors we saw in the kids would always disrupt.

This sort of where we had that background knowledge, we were able to be a lot more compassionate to what we were seeing and understanding that the behavior was the way of expressing. Um, but often families don't share that with schools. So it's, it's interesting how all of the systems are sort of placing the children in different spaces.

Tiffany Rochester: Yeah. Yeah, it is. And I think that, um, I, I've, I've heard that, though, from so many, um, teachers, uh, a- as well, that part of, you know, we thought something was going on with the kids- Mm ... and, and, and so we've asked the parents, "Has anything changed at home?" And they've said, "Yes, we've, we've separated." Um, so for anybody who is listening who is going through, uh, th- this stage, please tell the key people in your children's lives what is happening.

Of course, you want to keep your private business private. However, um, you don't need to air all of your dirty laundry to let the school know that something is happening for the children, and it just helps all of the adults who care for those kids to be aware that they might need to be a bit sensitive to what's happening and, um- 

Bel Bayliss: Yeah.

And I, I think there's also a, a selective silencing that happens when it's not something the parents can talk about. It becomes not something the children c- can talk about. So that becomes insular and, and the means of expressing that become more and more limited. 

Tiffany Rochester: Yeah. 

Bel Bayliss: It's certainly not about broadcasting it all over Facebook, although I know some people will do that.

Um, it really is about where's the line of letting the people, I guess, when we talk about inner circle, who are the inner circle that need to know to put the appropriate supports and understandings around it. 

Tiffany Rochester: Is that true? And my rule of thumb when we're looking at this particular topic for kids is that, um, the child should never be the bearer of the news.

And so anybody that we can think about that the child might like to go and talk to about the fact that their home is moving from one into two, that those people should hear it from the parents first, so that by the time the child is talking about it, it's already a known thing. It's not a surprise. It's not a shock.

Bel Bayliss: Yeah. So as somebody who never saw themselves going into business, um, which is the opposite end for me. Mine was always about being in business. Um, I'm really curious about what are the parts of business that really resonate and bring you energy and, and what are the bits that you're happy to sort of allow others to step in or, or delegate or outsource?

Tiffany Rochester: Um, so the parts that light me up are the same parts that have always lit me up across my career, which is, um, sitting down with clients, um, face-to-face or groups. My goodness me, I absolutely love working with groups and, um, and building communities of co-parents. So those things I thoroughly enjoy. Um, I do have a mailing list, and I aim to write to my list once a week, and I really, I really enjoy that.

I really enjoy the chance to, um... When I'm thinking about it, I, I want to send delicious goodness into people's inboxes. When they open it, I want them to feel like they're, they're opening a, a virtual hug, um, and something that's going to just feel nourishing for them. So I really enjoy that part. Um, I understand that I need to be on social media.

If we're trying to change systems and processes, we need to be visible. Um, that is not my love at all. Um, the, the mark- the active marketing piece, I just find it takes a lot of energy. Um, I would just love for there to be a machine that could pick things out of my brain and just, um, produce that for me.

Um, not there yet. Um, the delegating piece is interesting and, uh, I know you and I have had conversations on it that, um- Nobody loves your business as much as you do.

And when I think about the families that I serve, I, I have exacting standards for the level of care that I want them to receive and for the standard of service, um, that they, that I want them to have. Um, so learning how to trust my team and to, um, delegate to my team, that's been, um, an important thing, 'cause I cannot do all of the things.

Uh, definitely not. Uh, but bringing in the right team members and then trusting that they actually i- a- and they have... Like, I've, I work with an amazing team of people who are deeply committed to, um, to our, our mission in this space. But remembering that actually just because I can do it myself doesn't mean I should.

That's been a, a tricky one for me. 

Bel Bayliss: Yeah. And I would reflect that if you've got a team who cares and a culture of caring, that comes from leadership. So I'm wondering how you instill that into your business.

Tiffany Rochester: Look, we're very conscious about it, um, because, uh, recruitment is hard. So when we have, uh, good people on our team, we, we don't want them to, to leave. Um, uh, but also, um, all, all of our team works remotely, and so there's that, that real risk of isolation as well. Um, and in all of my other roles, I didn't need to run a team.

I could just bring clients into my room, work with them, send them out. So long as I rocked up into the lunch room every now and then and saw my colleagues, that, that was enough. I wasn't responsible for team culture. Um, so I think one of the parts for me was, uh, remembering that I need to actually set aside time to be really available to my team, um, rather than just siloing myself off, um, turning off all my notifications so I can deep dive into a, a piece of writing or, or a piece of work outside of seeing clients.

Um, and so I, I think that would be one of them, is being really mindful that that's just an important part of nurturing a team. Um, and we have a team chat that I really enjoy, and as our team's grown, everybody on our team is part-time. Um, so whilst we have a lot of people on our team that, um, everybody's working a small number of hours.

Uh, what I really enjoy is, um, the sharing of GIFs, um, and that's a G-I-F, GIFs, not the GIFs with the ... with the 10. Um, no, I, I just, I really enjoy that and w- and watching the, um, uh, the conversation happen between people that are not me and, and us all being part of that team. And that, that really stood out to me, um, uh, earlier this year, um, and you and I were at a business retreat together and, um, and I got a message from, um, one of our team, uh, Kate, our client conc- concierge saying, "How are things going at the retreat?"

And I had that moment of going, "Oh, I haven't been checking with my team. I, I haven't been sharing with them what's been coming out of this." And so, and lots of great stuff was happening. Um, you and I w- were working with, um, a, a colleague on some B-roll stuff at, at that time. And I then put a message back around this is, actually these are the things that we're doing, the conversations that I'm having and, and the plans that we're making.

And then having them respond back with excitement and enthusiasm around that was this, this really lovely moment of me recognizing that, um, th- that I'm very much not alone in this. Not only do I have, um, you know, the, the lawyers and the financial, um, advisors and accountants that I work with in my multidisciplinary teams who are standing shoulder to shoulder with me.

Within my own business, there is a team that I can rely upon and who are invested in what we're trying to do, and that was a, that was a really beautiful moment for me. 

Bel Bayliss: Yeah. And I, I'm absolutely hearing how much you value that they have that alignment, that they are interested and that they care. It's gotta make it all a little bit easier, I suspect.

Tiffany Rochester: Look, it does. And I think, again, th- I think some of this comes with this stage of life maybe. I, I would love for this part to come e- uh, uh, earlier in life for, for other people. But, um, I'm a hell yes person, and, um, I only work in all facets of my, uh, life and business with hell yes people. So, um, when I meet with clients, one of the things that I'll say to them is that, "You have to be a hell yes, I think you're the right person for me," and I have to be a, "Hell yes, I really wanna work with you."

But I have a hell yes criteria for my accountant, for my insurance broker, for, um, my bookkeeper, that they all have to be a, "Hell yes, we want to support the, the vision and mission of Co-parenting Companion," and I have to be a, "Hell yes, I really want you to be doing, um, you know, th- that, that service within our business."

Which is wonderful, because it means that I look forward to meeting with our accountant to do our tax. I love catching up with our bookkeeper when it's time to reconcile things. And since I don't like to have to do anything in the back end of, of finance, I think that's actually quite a, quite a good thing.

Um, and it just means that as, you know, as I, as I move through this life, I get to spend a lot of time with people I really, I really enjoy spending time with. I 

Bel Bayliss: love that. I love that. You mentioned that we were on a retreat together, and I'm curious about how you see the role of that other level of support around business, so coaches or mentors or, or peers and colleagues.

I wonder where that sort of plays into the business space for you. 

Tiffany Rochester: Yes, I think it's, um, it's really, really crucial. So, um, a- and that was a, kind of a, a slow awakening for me, I, I think. Um, particularly in terms of, uh, the, the role of a business coach. Um, so, uh, I, I knew what I wanted to do. I knew... Well, I thought I knew, and I thought I knew what I was trying to build.

And I tried to do it all by myself, because I know things and, you know, I'm I'm clever, surely. Um- There's always Google. And, um, and it turns out, like, I didn't. Um, I didn't know anything about marketing, um, at, at all. Um, or, or anything about how to grow this tiny seed into even a seedling. Um, and so the first step in that was recruiting a business coach.

Um, and I interviewed several, and there was the one that was a standout. Again, a hell yes. Um, this was my person. Um, and that was when I realized, um, I'd been thinking far too small. She saw something far larger, um, was possible for me than what I was calling out for myself. So I think that business coaching, somebody outside of my head, somebody that offered objectivity and also wisdom and experience, um, who, who knew how to get me from where I was to where I wanted to get to is my, you know, stage A, stage B, stage C.

Um, and beyond. And so at that point, all I, all I thought I was looking for was a business coach, and it happened that the way that she ran things was, um, was in a, a group, um, process. And like many people, I thought, "Oh, one-on-one would be so much better." Um, it's the same conversation I have with parents now, where they, they have the sense that, that they really need to see me one-on-one.

And I'm in that similar position that my business coach was in back then, to say, "Actually, so much more happens when you're in a group. So much more growth, so much more rapidly, and with so much more support." And that was my experience. Um, and so, uh, that was indeed how I met you and, um, and an incredible group of women that I know you and I, uh, call dear friends now.

I wasn't in the market for new friends, Bel. Um, I, I, I just- You're stuck with us anyway. Right. 

Bel Bayliss: Uh, 

Tiffany Rochester: and these lovely... I, I had a lovely friendship group. Um, but seriously, I was not looking for new friends. And, um, found these people who are utterly irresistible. Um, and- Working, you know, starting a business, running a business is hard work, and it can be lonely work.

And so to have this beautiful group of business besties to be able to connect in with, to be able to just show up and go, "This is the stuff I'm struggling with. This is the stuff I'm finding, um, hard right now," to not have to, um, you know, mask it or sugarcoat 

Bel Bayliss: it- 

Tiffany Rochester: Mm-hmm ... um, and to be held by those people. Um, and I, I think it's really beautiful because- We all have different areas for our vision and mission.

We all have different work we're trying to do, and so there's a very rich experience of supporting each other and not being in competition with each other. Um, it's, it's pretty sacred and I, I, I'm very certain our business wouldn't be where it is without that support and that nurture. Um, I would say that would be essential for anybody who is heading down this road themselves.

Bel Bayliss: Yeah. And, and I think there's, there's such wisdom in what you just said. It is about finding the right fit, 'cause over the years I've had multiple different types of business coaches, but if I think of my early business coaches, they were just about, they wanted to know the numbers. Um, you know, the accountant was, "If you want to make more money, see more people."

Um, and you're like, "Huh?" There's only so many hours in a day. What that looks like, adding, adding one person to, you know, it doesn't matter if you're a psychologist or a massage therapist, it doesn't matter what you're doing. If you're working hour to hour, that one more always has an additional cost there.

It's not just that, that 50 minutes or that hour. Um, you know, all of the, all of the bits that happen outside. And similar to you, I had done one-on-one coaching and i- in that same manner, the idea of community coaching or group coaching, community coaching is how I like to term, term it- Mm-hmm ... um, very much values aligned with inclusive, um, you know, inclusive and belonging.

Tiffany Rochester: Mm-hmm. 

Bel Bayliss: They're the things that are key for me. But I, I'm still in coaching spaces where I'm being coached, and it will be community because I will attend for an hour's coaching session where I don't ask a single question and I learn so much, because people are asking the questions that I haven't even thought of yet.

Tiffany Rochester: Absolutely. Absolutely. And- I love that phrase community coaching. That's beautiful 

Bel Bayliss: Yeah, yeah. For, to me, that's what it is. It's coming into the community. 'Cause where we have, um, inclusive isn't the right word, connectedness and belonging, when my brain works properly, um, has been sort of a, a theme. So for me, when I was working in schools, it was very much about kids ne- kids don't care about education, because if education was the important thing, they'd be able to change schools without any issue because education is education.

Mm-hmm. For me, it was al- always about how does this child feel connected and belonging? Because if they feel connected and belonging, they'll attend school- Yeah ... whether school is hard or easy. And I think that wherever we feel that level of connection and belonging, we can show up in a much safer way, which I think is the other part you leant into, is having this little business hub, community, whatever we want to call it, where we can show up- To be celebrated when things go well Mm And genuinely celebrated, not just lip service.

But also for people to offer nourishing advice when things are falling flat on their face. And we all offer all of that. Y- 

Tiffany Rochester: you're absolutely right, and I think that part, yes, about being able to show up and celebrate your wins is really beautiful too, where people, they know what you've done, they know what, uh

you know, they, they know all of the background of what's gone into you getting there, and can really happy dance along- Yeah ... with you is, is really, really beautiful. Yeah. 

Bel Bayliss: Yeah. And that knowledge that i- wherever success shows up, it's very rarely an overnight success, even if it might seem that way. 

Tiffany Rochester: Yeah.

Yeah. I think that's so important too, that, um- I think people often compare themselves to what is visible of people's businesses. Mm. And for a start to be visible, we have to have been doing things for a while, um, to actually gain that visibility. And then, um, o- of course, the things that businesses share on social media is about the things that are going well or the things that, um, uh, that they think are going to help their business go better.

But people don't show up to say, "Uh, I really struggled to, um, you know, recruit enough people into my group this time around," or, "My gosh, I've been trying to, um, get traction on, on, um, Instagram for, you know, X number of years." Um, and so yeah, people are often comparing themselves to somebody who's already done some really hard yards, but haven't realized that those hard yards have been done, and so then they're hard on themselves.

And I think, yeah, showing up to a group of people is, a- and being part of that community experience is what shines some light on that, that, um, you know, you know, everybody has to get their battle scars. Oh, I don't like battle scars, actually, as a concept. But everybody has to get their, their, perhaps their, their, um, their growth, their, um, stretch marks.

Um- 

Bel Bayliss: Yeah, yeah. The stretch marks, I like that. I would call them the mini falls. Um, you know, all of those places where we trip on the way because it all worked out, well, that we're on the wrong path. You know, cert- certainly when I came into the space along, you know, I think I was a step behind you in the, in the coaching space.

But when I came in, I had an absolute ... It was going to be about working with burnt-out therapists, as somebody who had been through, um, burnout in my s- working in schools. Definitely I can look back, although at the time didn't recognize it, I look back and go, "Ooh, that, that, that wasn't comfortable." Um, I had that real passion.

And then the space was really busy with all the burnt-out therapists trying to support... Or not burnt-out therapists, all the therapists who had been through burnout who are now trying to, in the caring way that we do in our profession, is, "Well, I don't want other people to go through this." Uh, but I also, I think that, y- you know, social media gives us, you know, real life as in R-E-E-L, not R-E-A-L.

Um- Yes ... you know, if you ever see my morning coffee, you will see my morning coffee on there, but you won't see the washing up that's not done. Um, you know, that will be strategically moved. Mm. And I think the more we go on, the more I'm like, "Well, if someone sees I haven't washed up, they'll know that I'm human."

So it's, I think there's that, that very- interesting line between what we perceive things to be and, and how things are. And I don't know, I think people, I think with the advent of AI, and I don't want to go into that too deeply- Mm-hmm ... is that, um, we're starting to appreciate humans- 

Tiffany Rochester: Yeah ... 

Bel Bayliss: and human qualities that we bring.

Tiffany Rochester: Yeah. 

Bel Bayliss: And, and there's even more, I think there's more reason right now to be real, R-E-A-L, than, than, um, in that other space. And it's curious because even AI and writing is becoming tricky. So when we write, I'll write something and I'll go, "Oh, that sounds AI." Okay, how do I change that to not sound AI even if it sounds like me?

Tiffany Rochester: Mm. 

Bel Bayliss: Really tricky space that we're moving into. Um, and it has a place, do not get me wrong. I'm happy for it to take my ideas and create a tech format that looks pretty. Um, 'cause that's not my strength. Um, but yeah, I get annoyed when it, like, changes my words. It's like, "No, go away. Stop." 

Tiffany Rochester: I think, you know, I, I, um, enjoyed playing with it a lot when it, you know, first came out, as I think many, many of us did.

Um, and, uh, what I learned was it cannot think as creatively as me. Uh, it, uh- Oh, 

Bel Bayliss: no ... 

Tiffany Rochester: it, it, it can't, um... It cannot write in my voice. Um, and what I see in that is it is because it's a collection of, you know, ones and zeros, right? It doesn't, it doesn't care for my people the way that I care for my people. 

Bel Bayliss: No.

It has no discernment, and there's a great saying going around, it is the cover band. Like, I really appreciate that. And even this morning I put something out to, for review to a, a group in my coaching and, um, it was like, these are my words because AI can't think. They were literally, um... AI is my tech support.

Tiffany Rochester: Yeah. 

Bel Bayliss: Like, I can, I can create a quiz, but please can you make it look pretty and so that it does X, Y, and Zed. I still don't know how to get the email to work, but that's, that's them.

Um, coming back to just what you were saying before and, and leaning into certainly the work that I'm passionate about, is that idea that we see what people do. We don't, we miss what's underneath. 

Tiffany Rochester: Mm. 

Bel Bayliss: We see the patterns that might be there, and we might miss the systems that sit below that. But at the real bottom, the real foundation piece is our mindset.

If we don't believe and we can't see, if you didn't have the coach saying, "I don't... Like, I like the garden you're planting, but I can see a forest." 

Tiffany Rochester: Yeah. Yeah.  

Bel Bayliss: Like, you don't just have to do these families. You could actually change a system, which I know you're actively doing. I think those things are, are really important, but that comes about having mindsets that we can see clearly and, and have them challenged when they're not helpful 

Tiffany Rochester: Absolutely, yes.

Um, having somebody that can, that is courageous enough to ask those hard questions and to point out the, the flaws in our thinking that we can't see for ourselves. Conversations are much better when we have them outside of our heads. Um- 

Bel Bayliss: Yeah, yeah, and not at two o'clock in the morning. But yeah, the, the, the sort of piece that I put out is a, is a mindset check- Mm

for female founders about how they're sitting within the growth and the fixed mindset. So what are their beliefs versus what they can do? And I think that's really invaluable that we don't see our own barriers because we're so comfortable and familiar with them. 

Tiffany Rochester: I think you're right, um, that, yeah, we don't, that the words that I'd use around it is we, um, don't recognize our own rule-governed behavior.

Um, that, um, and we know when we're under rule-governed behavior, we, we become insensitive to context that is telling us something different is happening here. Um, and yes- Mm-hmm ... to have somebody who can say, "What rule are you following there? What, what assumption have you made there?" Um, or, or just, "I can see something here that I don't think you're seeing yet.

Can I, can I show you it?" Um, yeah, incredibly, incredibly useful. 

Bel Bayliss: Yeah. I've been reading again Adam Grant's Hidden Potential. 

Tiffany Rochester: Mm-hmm. 

Bel Bayliss: Um, and some of the stuff that I've taken away recently is not to ask for feedback to, but to ask for advice, and I thought that that had a real nuance to it because generally people with feedback will go, "Yeah, that's great.

Looked good." You know, that type of thing. Asking for advice is specifically asking them to give you a feedback that is more discerning. 

Tiffany Rochester: Mm, mm. 

Bel Bayliss: So it's really curious about all the little nuances that we can put in place that can move us to seeing the bigger picture. Um, because I know that your work is, is online, a lot of it, so that allows that growth for your business and that systems change not to be limited by location as such.

Tiffany Rochester: It is. One of the things that I do really love about it is, yes, we, um, we work with families. So I, I'm in, uh, Perth, Western Australia, but we work with families all across Australia. Um, we have families in New Zealand, Singapore, Canada, um, across in the UK, and, um, yeah, it is that capacity to do things online that allows it to, to have that kind of reach.

Um, yeah, and I really enjoy that. I really enjoy being able to, um... Uh, I had this vision that, um, you know, i- in years to come, the parents inside our community, um, because they've got more money in their pockets because there's less that's gone into the pockets of, um, the lawyers and the court system, can then go and travel hop around the world and go and catch up with each other in real life and, um, and yeah, enjoy- Some coffees together or beverages of their choice, um, watching their kids, um, you know, play and connect.

So, yeah. 

Bel Bayliss: And on that sort of topic, I know that you are becoming more and more a traveler of this planet with sharing the work you're doing, that it's really being acknowledged across... I've seen you pop up at conferences, uh, speaking engagements. How's that sort of established for you? 

Tiffany Rochester: Um, yeah, it has been.

This year particularly has been a, a, a huge year of travel. Um, I was, uh, outlining it to some friends, um, at the start of the year, and I said, "Well, there's just, there's actually too many. I'm gonna have to put one of those back." Um, and I, I did. I did put one of them back, but I did put another one onto the list.

Um, and, and now as, you know, we're g- moving towards the tail end, I've got a couple left. Um, I'm, uh, going to, uh, presenting at the Brisbane AAPI conference, um, in October, and then I'm heading up to Vancouver to present at the, um, International Academy for Collaborative Professionals conference, um, up there.

Um, I was in Adelaide last week. It, um, I... Which sounds very, very exciting, um, and, and it is. I, I, I, I have been enjoying the opportunities. Um- But just for those, you know, listening along at home, it's a lot of, um, flight, hotel, conference, present hotel, flight, home. Um, so- It's 

Bel Bayliss: not quite the glamour. 

Tiffany Rochester: No, no, not the glamour.

Um, occasionally with a few extra days thrown in where we can get there. Um, it's been a- again, a really intentional part of our plan. Um, i- in terms of if we want system level change, then we need far more than me. And there is, there is far more than me. Um, so I want to find all the other people who are, um, who are like me, um, in, in the law field and in the financial field, um, and, um, and be part of that larger group working for change.

And I know that some of the ways that, some of the ways that, um, I talk about doing things is different from what is in the mainstream. It is different from what is in the broader supply. And particularly, um, I draw upon, um, contextual behavioural science, which is the science of, um, understanding people in the context in which they're in and predicting and changing behaviour with the specific goal of reducing, um, human suffering and improving wellbeing.

And every time I say that out loud, I'm like, "It's the perfect science for this community, right?" To reduce- Yeah ... suffering, improve wellbeing, and predicting and influencing behaviour. This is everything that we want to be about. This is stuff that, um, that other people aren't talking about in the family law circle.

They're not talking about it. You know, we're, um, we've had a, a horrendous week in the news this week as, as you would be aware, for the amount of domestic violence related deaths that we 

Bel Bayliss: have. Yeah. Absolutely. 

Tiffany Rochester: And the stuff that sits inside the science that, um, that I use inside our five-week co-parenting intensive reset not only helps people who have experienced violence to heal and recover and, um, experience less trau- traumatic responses and be able to thrive.

There is also a body of research that shows that those same skills and toolkits help people who have perpetrated violence to stop perpetrating. And that doesn't take more restraining orders, it doesn't take more women's refuges, it doesn't take, um, you know, locking people up in more prisons. We have a science that talks to how to make the world a safer place, and that is the stuff that I want to be speaking about everywhere.

Give me a microphone and I, and I will lean into it. Um, so, um, so yes, it's been a range of psychology conferences and family law conferences this year. And, um, and I really, I've really appreciated having those opportunities to speak more broadly about what I think is possible for serving families that are going through really hard times.

Bel Bayliss: Yeah. So I'm hearing younger Tiff from high school, who created a strike amongst all of her schools to advocate for teachers, has taken that power and that passion and is moving it globally to change systems. 

Tiffany Rochester: Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to send her a postcard to say, "Look what we did." 

Bel Bayliss: Yeah. And it's not even look what we did, it's look what we're doing.

Because I don't think you're at the, I don't think this is your peak. 

Tiffany Rochester: We will never be done. 

Bel Bayliss: I, I suspect there are so many amazing things up ahead with the work that you're doing, and the way it permeates, and the impact and potential. I know that, um, I do sit with people and I'm, uh, constantly saying, "Perhaps you should look at this website.

Maybe go and have a look over here because things can be different." Um, but it's, it's, for a lot of people it's that belief that things can be different, particularly when we see that intergenerational, this is what happened for my parents and my grandparents. So there's those contextual things that sit there.

But the fact that you have, you know, witnessed to change, and witnessed to systems being different, and witnessed to families not having to go through the same trauma process that has sit there traditionally when people who don't understand development of children are making calls on the development of children.

Tiffany Rochester: It's 100% right. It's why there's so much joy in my work, is because I work with cycle breakers all of the time. And, and they are, they are most definitely my people. 

Bel Bayliss: Wondering if there's anything else about your work, or your business, or yourself that you'd like to share before we sort of wrap up? And I do have one question when we finish, or as we finish.

Tiffany Rochester: I mean, my goodness me. If I think back over what we've talked about, we've been on a, a, a wild and fabulous ride through so many different areas and topics. Um- No, I think I'm just going to, I'm just going to rest it there. I, I think, um, yeah 

Bel Bayliss: So my final question. What piece, and it doesn't have to be singular because I've been called out on this before.

What piece or pieces of wisdom or advice that you've either been offered or that you've lived by would you like to share with our listeners? 

Tiffany Rochester: I had, um, a coffee with a dear friend of mine, uh, several years ago, and it was m- I'm pretty sure it was before I launched this business. Um, she's also a clinical psychologist, and I was talking to her about many of the things that were on my mind at that time.

Um, uh, we were talking about the, the, the climate emergency, and we were talking about, um, families in distress. We were talking about, um, our neurodivergent populations and, um, what it was like for them to be having to, um, to, to mask in so many settings and, um, and, and the list went on of all of the things that were all on my mind that I, I, I, uh, wanted to be active in and, um, creating change in.

And she said to me, "Do you think, you know, if you stopped caring for your children, and you also stopped sleeping, and you could work on these things 24 hours a day, do you think... you know, would you achieve all of those things on your list?" Um, and I loved her so much for the gentle way that she asked that question.

And of course the answer was, w- was, well, n- no. Um, and she said, "So, so we already know you cannot do all of the things, and that even if you did, you'd have to sacrifice so much, um, like, you know, your sanity and your life, um, and you still wouldn't get there. So you, you cannot do them all. Y- you get to choose."

Um, and it was this really beautiful reminder that, yes, I, I get to choose. And the other freedom that opened up in that is that there are many other people who will choose the spaces that I am not able to move forward and step into. And so if I work really hard at doing my piece well, then there are plenty of other people who are going to take those other causes forward as well.

So that would be, that would be... I, I, I have received many pieces of wisdom and advice from an incredible number of people, but that's the one that speaks to me here, is that w- we get to choose. Love that. Mm-hmm. 

Bel Bayliss: You get to choose your path. 

Tiffany Rochester: Mm-hmm. 

Bel Bayliss: That's gorgeous. Well, thank you so much for your time today.

It has been an exhilarating and joyous and uplifting conversation, and I'm so pleased and thankful and grateful that you popped in today. 

Tiffany Rochester: No, thank you so much, Bel. I know that we could talk all day. So thank you. I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. 

Bel Bayliss: For sure.